I think now is a tough time to be tasting the Charvin. Especially in ripe years, they go through an intensely fruit-driven phase, but it’s just a phase.
Not many Pinots out there with zero new oak who’s was it?
Stems can definitely seem like oak in a wine especially for me with syrah as the spice/pepper quality can be amplified. I have to thank Rod Berglund at Joseph Swan when I was working there for teaching me what Frech oak tastes like. You also have so many coopers, countries, forests, toast levels, etc. that not all oak tastes the same. My favorite kind of oak is one you know is there but you can’t taste blind. Woody characters are a descriptor I often find in wines aged in neutral barrels. There is no new oak flavor but I still get a character of wood.
Maybe in a few years that what you that was oaky will age out. Maybe a decanting would have changed it some.
This.
JFO beat me to it. Many years ago, this is what Adam Lee told me. Particular strains of yeast can cause oaky notes.
Very interesting post, Paul. Thank you for taking the time to share all that.
I have one question that popped into my head while reading your post: Why don’t all/many/more red wines that have gone through malo smell roasted/chocolate or buttery?
I would welcome comment from Eric or Kevin or any other wine makers but my amateur understanding is that various bacteria can be responsible for malolactic conversion. Each leaves a characteristic finger print much in the same way different yeasts mark the wine with their own individual traits. To complicate the microbiological aspect of vinification I understand that the yeast or bacteria that starts their own respective fermentation isn’t necessarily the one who finishes either. The initiator might die half or three quarters of the way through fermentation and then a completely different strand of yeast or bacteria will pick up where the first left off.
This variability, to my understanding, is why commercial yeasts became popular. They are predictable and robust.
One note to add, the fruit has a variety of different yeasts and bacteria available either indigenously (in the fruit) or in its immediate environment (the cuverie). This is no big surprise. It’s “why” fruit rots. And, presumably, why it rots faster in different environments.
To me, the descriptor ‘tastes and/or smells oaky’ is one of the most often used, but most misunderstood or misapplied out there. I have poured folks wines that were all stainless steel fermented and aged, but some have commented on the ‘oaky overtones’ or the ‘richness that obviously is due to oak’. I’ve tasted unoaked wines with others who were convinced the wine had been aged using 100% new heavy toast oak barrels. And I have been around others tasting wines that were in new oak for 2 years and, to me, were quite ‘oaky’ only to hear others say that they did not notice the oak at all - that it has ‘integrated nicely’ and was ‘not apparent’.
Agreed. And I think part of it comes from what Eric said, and Paul, who wrote mostly what I was going to.
Wine that has gone thru malolactic fermentation and that has the buttery aroma and flavor will often suggest oak to someone.
I think a lot of the non-agreement people have is because they associate correlated flavors with oak and sometimes confuse one for the other. If you have a few rich and ripe CA Chardonnays that went thru malolactic fermentation and were aged in oak, you might end up associating oak with flavors that aren’t necessarily from the oak.
I used to and still do make that mistake a lot. I tried to make myself learn all I could about oak alone and in short order realized I’d probably never be able to learn enough to state with any certainty all that much about oak, other than the fact that it’s not that simple. There are just too many variables.
Still, if various compounds from stems or seeds are similar to or the same as compounds found in oak, and if yeasts, fermentation processes, and lees can also contribute similar compounds, I can see how people make the connection. It’s like hearing a high pitched scream in the middle of the night. It could be a bobcat or a baby. You just don’t know until you shoot it.
Perhaps what you’ve been perceiving as attributable to “oak” simply isn’t “oak” and is a combination of other flavors? We’ve all been there with one flavor. There might be a woody note associated with stem inclusion that resembles oak. Even “oak” is somewhat subjective, since different types of oak give off different profiles, from sweet vanilla and cut wood (American Oak) to herbs, spice, and cedar (French Oak). Perhaps the stemmy notes had a bit of profile overlap and triggered an identifier in your brain.