How can a "no oak" CDP taste, so oaky?

WINE TALK
1

Harry Karis, in his landmark CDP books list Domaine Charvin as “traditional” and states “aged 21 months cement tanks - no oak”. Yet, a recent 2010 opened was packed with oak that seemed to mask the fruit and, for me, dull the freshness of this youthful wine. If it does indeed see some oak I can chalk this up as opening it way too soon but then has Karis got it wrong? Right now I’d classify this as a modern style based on what I drank. Maybe the style has changed since the book was written in 08?

2

Unless something has changed – and I haven’t heard of any changes – Charvin does not use any oak. Nor is there any destemming or filtration.

3

Interesting question Craig - since I got dragged over the coals for saying this CdR tasted oaky:

I don’t have an answer but my theory is that it’s a result of using whole cluster.

4

Someone mentioned on here about a month ago that reduction in syrah can present as tannin or “oakiness.” I don’t know the details on how that works, but cement tanks seem like they might create a reductive environment - maybe that’s what’s going on?

5

I don’t know what causes the taste, but I visit Charvin twice a year (last time this past June) and there is not a speck of wood to be found in the cellars (well, maybe the ceiling beams). I haven’t tasted the 2010 since last year, so I have no theory to account for what you are tasting, but oak isn’t it. As a prior post states, he doesn’t de-stem and he doesn’t filter and he uses ambient yeast and he doesn’t seek surmaturité, etc. etc…

6

Maybe oak doesn’t taste like you think it tastes?

7

I had a bottle of the 2010 on 2/28. Nothing oaky that I could find, but it struck me as an atypically big and primary vintage of Charvin.

8

Stems, especially on a young wine, can give the impression of oak. It can impart a baking spice character. Sometimes it can even taste like American oak.

9

By that logic: if someone notices the flavor of black tea in a wine, that wasn’t made with any black tea, does that mean he or she doesn’t know what black tea tastes like? Or lavender? Or cherries? etc.

10

I like to let Charvin age.
Not even thinking about my '10s–hope the oak integrates neener

11

I drink black tea on occasion, so I know how it tastes. I don’t eat much oak.

12

I get that from stems too. Had a PN last night and it had a toasty oak flavor but saw zero new oak.

13

I was with a group of other wine geeks including a local retail wine buyer who likewise felt it had an “oakiness” to it too. Fooled us. Definitely, as Eric says, primary. I had to lay it out there as it has been on my mind. I agree with Scott that these do need age. I have the 04, 05,06 and 07s too and have only had one btl from ea of those vintage. I just was wondering if my palate or the style had changed as I liked the previous vintages better on release except 07 which was also kind of iffy too. I definitely won’t revist for at least 5-7.

14

FWIW, the 2003 was pretty extreme early, but it has really come into form gorgeously…

15

Apropos of nothing, but let me point out that I don’t eat much black tea, yet I have an impression of the flavor by drinking liquid that was steeped in the leaves. Can you think of any examples where you might have gotten the flavor impression of oak by drinking something that was in contact with wood? rolleyes

16

+1. The only '03 CdP I’ve found to my liking.

17

The 03 Charvin did about as well as an 03 can do to keep within limits, but it is an 03. Likewise the 07. Both are on the heavy side, though both are identifiably Charvin, and thus I am glad to have them. Charvin’s 2010 wasn’t heavy, for me, like those vintages, but it was unusually flamboyant both from barrel and when it was first in the bottle. I expect it to age very well. I could understand thinking it was too much of a muchness at this point. But I don’t see what this has to do with oak. But I didn’t taste the bottle you did, either.

18

Actually, all my 2003’s are drinking well now.

19

I tried an 03 Pegau a few weeks ago. I tasted kind of like musty cardboard and wet dog with a hint of plastic. [head-bang.gif]
I’ve enjoyed quite a few 2003 Domaine Roger Perrin Châteauneuf-du-Pape Reserve des Vieilles Vignes

20

Besides dulling the fruit, were there other “oak-associated” qualities the wine showed?