I’ve long been searching for other Bordeaux wines that share a particular quality I first encountered in the 2010 Vieux Château Champs de Mars Stacie—one of my favourite bottles to date. It’s hard to find but very affordable (often under $50), and it had that elusive “mature Bordeaux magic”—a kind of seamless integration of ripe fruit, savoury depth, and maybe even a subtle touch of Brett. It struck me as more than the sum of its parts.
I originally assumed this came down to age, but then I tasted a much younger wine, the 2022 Château Gachon Montagne-St. Émilion, which had a similar (though less refined) character — again well above its price point.
I’m still relatively early in my Bordeaux journey (haven’t yet explored the “super seconds” or top-tier estates), but these two bottles impressed me more than others I’ve tried at 2–3x the price.
I’m wondering: does anyone know what accounts for this particular quality? Is it a function of terroir (perhaps somehow particular to Libournais, though that seems unlikely), wine-making style, early Brett development, or something else entirely? And more importantly — where else can I look to find it?
Would love to hear if others have had similar experiences or suggestions.
Thanks—“négociant” wasn’t quite the right term. I mostly meant it in the loose sense of “unknown purveyor,” since I wasn’t sure whether either wine was truly estate-grown and bottled. Appreciate the correction.
I’m familiar with the appellations, though what’s surprised me is that I’ve had more expensive wines from St-Émilion proper—often from better-known producers—that didn’t show this same character. So I was hoping to get closer to what explains that distinction.
Curious: when you say they’re “pricey for what they are,” is that because of the lack of classification, or because you’ve found better value elsewhere in those regions?
How old has the cru classe wine you’ve tried been? I feel like you’ll get ripe fruit with savory depth from lots of places if you give the wine 15 years or so on its side. Generally savory characteristics develop and become stronger with age. A very bretty wine will show a lot more savory character early on, but the brett will also rob the wine of other charming qualities, imo.
Admittedly only a few have been that old. But some have and have oddly not been comparable even to that 2022. I’d have thought exactly what you said, but it seems to not often be the case. Perhaps I just have to try more and have gotten somewhat unlucky.
I should say that I don’t think either wine had too much Brett, though I suppose that’s a rather personal characteristic.
I think it’s cool that you’re geeking out finding obscure producers in the region and enjoying the perceived differences in their wines compared to larger house. Even if it might mean that you could have gotten better wines for less money from a bigger chateau.
However, I don’t really follow what this difference is that you are detecting in these wines, what it is, and who else would have it. You’re probably just going to have to keep exploring and forming your own opinions.
If you find other fun ones, please post back on this thread.
You might be picking up on what people call the earthy quality of Bordeaux that it can have much more strongly than other regions, especially fruit driven ones. You might try moderately aged bottles from some good Haut-Medoc producers like Chateau Lanessan or Chasse-Spleen, they should be affordable and can teach you a lot.
Do you still think that holds, given that I’ve tried both a 2018 Château d’Arcins and a 2011 Château Bertrand Braneyre? Of the two, only the Bertrand Braneyre showed any of the character I’m chasing—though still noticeably less than the two I mentioned in my original post. (In fact, I scored both of these lower.)
Since most of us don’t have experience with the specific wines you have raised in this thread, are there some wines you have tried that had the character you were seeking and are better known / bigger production wines?
For the last few years, our house wine has been Chateau Pitray. It’s a Cote de Castillon and I bought the last five cases of the 2016 for around $12. Not sure about current availability, but it’s a spectacular value, and far better than any house wine should be.
While it’s not crazily “obscure,” Fronsac offers some great wines and I’ve specifically enjoyed Chateau Villars Fronsac. The 2015 is available in NJ via wine-searcher.
@C0byV, would you say you are seeking wines with more elements that lean rustic, old school, earthy, more soil type notes? Less oak, polish, gloss, big fruit, crossover New World appeal?
If that gets at it (and I don’t mean to put any words into your mouth, but I haven’t really zeroed in on what you’re looking for), then I think I and others would have lots of suggestions at different price ranges that tend that way.