GG's - What to drink young and what to age

WINE TALK
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Those old KR Auslese trockens are special wines. I need to put some of the ‘R’ in the cellar too. A 1998 Saumagen ‘R’ is one of my epiphany dry Rieslings from a few years ago. I’d like to gamble on one or two of my bottles of the '10 Kab trocken, but knowing my own inability to stop opening young Kabinett, I suspect I’ll end up drinking all my bottles of that wine by the end of this summer.

And yeah, I know I should have kept more of the 2008s, but those wines were seriously spectacular - didn’t find them particularly closed, and the aromatics and vivid minerality on the Ganz Horn and Kastanienbusch in particular had me going ‘holy shit’ with each sip.

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Have you had the 06 lately? The 06 Steilweg was beautiful recently.

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I’m not David, but I’ve liked most of the (few) Keller wines I’ve tried except for the 06s (which I have feeling is more due to the vintage), but don’t buy his GGs because I’m not comfortable spending the money on the ones that I really like (Absterde in particular).

On a completely different note, how have Riesling people liked the 2011 Zilliken Rausch GG? No mention of it yet so far in the thread, and Zilliken is obviously best known for pradikat wines, but I tasted it a few months ago and liked it. Very nice purity, acid and freshness.

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My issue with Keller is the scale of the wines. I just find them too much of just about everything. Combine that with the prices, and they are an easy pass.

25

Cliff, no, but it is in storage.

Alex,

Zilliken '11 GG and '11 Diabas (feinherb GG) were stunning in Wiesbaden this summer. The GG especially was the best at Zilliken.

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My issue with Keller is that they are, across the board just not as great (read more expensive) than the other wines they are more expensive than. I hate seeing a winery and then the secondary market start to charge a premium for a perceived uptick in quality when it’s just not there. G-Max is a curiosity and can be very good (it’s excellent, don’t get me wrong), but at $300+ it is not better than Felseneck from SG, Kastanienbusch from Rebholz, Halenberg from Schonleber or Kirchenstuck from Burklin Wolf. The reason I list those specific wines is because, generally they are considered top dawgs in GG’s in Germany. There is also Heymann Lowenstein Uhlen Roth Lay, but that is maddingly inconsistent, but when great, as Salil says, will have you chanting Holy Shit. Also Van Volxem, since '08 is on an amazing roll, especially with Scharzhofberger and Altenberg. All those wines I’d rather drink than Keller. Kirschspiel is ok, fun, but not serious wine. HUGE-backer is just that. Too big for it’s own good. Pettenthal (too little made) can be stunning as can Morstein, but I think Wittman kills Keller when it comes to Morstein. Also much much less than Keller’s example. Also Groebe across the street from Keller is making some excellent wines for about 1/3rd the price of Keller.

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I’d also like to say this thread makes me yearn for the days of ebob circa 2002-2003 when German threads like this were common and partaken in with civility. Better than my humidity shitshow for sure.

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I quite like the civil conversation in this thread as it really getting to the nitty gritty of the curious subject of GGs. And it’s a damn good education as well!

Considering I am drinking an '05 Kartauserhofberg Spatlese trocken tonight that, while good, i dont really love it gets you thinking about what it is in dry Riesling that sets some apart from the others.

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Age Rebholz and Donnhoff.

Drink both of the above young every now and then too. Reference point for differing styles that are accessible and ageworthy.

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Great thread. This is a category of wine that I’m currently exploring. I started with the '10 SF GGs – specifically, the Felseneck and the Halenberg – which I’ve found to be unique, spectacular and right in my wheelhouse. I’ll seek out some of the others mentioned in this thread.

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I think it’s next to impossible making generalizations on which GGs demand (or will improve with) bottle age and which are also good (or meant to be drunk) young. Every vintage is different in each vineyard. Also, as Lyle said, the GG is a fairly new category and many producers are still gaining experience and are finding their individual style. Some producers have only really emerged in the last few years (e.g. Schäfer-Fröhlich, Battenfeld-Spanier, St. Antony, Kuhn, Siener, von Racknitz, von Winning). Some wineries have gone through different stylistic changes (e.g. P.J. Kühn) or had different Kellermeisters at the wheel which significantly influenced their style (e.g. Van Volxem). And at the Mosel, the GG category is just too varied and too young to really make any statements in my view.

I’d say that it’s every ambitious winemaker’s goal to make GGs which will significantly improve with bottle age, but which are also good (very) young (meaning in the first or second year after bottling). When I talk to winemakers, many (not all) tell me that the drinking window resembles that of many other wines (Burgundy Pinot Noir and (excluding the Prem-Ox problem) Chardonnay, Bordeaux, Chenin Blanc from the Loire) in that the wines are good young, then shut down and re-open at some point.

Probably, everyone here will have one or more examples of wines that were great or shitty young or great or shitty with some years on their back or great or shitty with some more years on their back. One of the best young Rieslings I ever had for example is the 2009 Monzinger Halenberg by Emrich-Schönleber, but I’m pretty sure that it will be great again in a slightly different way in 5 years. Rebholz is always subject to controversy. Some people I know don’t like them at all (never, at no point in their development), some like them young and think they don’t age well and some think they are difficult young and blossom with some bottle age. Another example is the IDIG by Christmann, which some people absolutely adore when young and aged and some people (including myself) don’t like that much, especially when aged.

The only generalization that I’d make is that there are some producers with a rather traditional style whose wines hardly ever show really well young, but improve with some reliability with significant bottle age. These are for example Koehler-Ruprecht, Groebe, J.B. Becker (not in the VDP), Karl Schaefer in good years. Then there are some producers whose wines are difficult for some young because of the “sponti stink” (e.g. Schäfer-Fröhlich, Schloss Lieser). Then again, some people love that stink and also the raw energy of these wines when they’re young. Then, there are some producers who know that their clientele doesn’t care that much about leaving their wines in the cellar for too long and who, therefore, rather focus on accessibility (e.g. many Rheingau producers, Juliusspital, Castell, Pfeffingen). This doesn’t mean that these wines necessarily don’t age well, but a really good development in bottle is maybe not the main focus of these wineries.

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GG are not fro drinking, just for tasting [oops.gif]
On a serios note: GGs are a new type of wine. On the other hand they are the successors of what was called “Auslese trocken” before. Therefore I wouldn’t expect a clear answer to this question.

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As a wise man once said - the wine will always have the last word.

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Thanks for all the replies re: Keller.

Do any of you think this could be because of a difference between the European and American palate? I see a lot of you often speak highly of Koehler-Ruprecht (please, correct me if I’m wrong) - these are wines I find rarely get good reviews in Europe.

To contribute to the actual topic: I have limited experience with GG’s and what I have is mostly with younger ones (2008 and up), but so far I haven’t felt that any of the wines weren’t ready. On the contrary they were really enjoyable. These are mostly wines from Mosbacher (loved the 2008 Ungeheuer), Battenfeld-Spanier, Kuhling-Gillott, Fritz Haag and Schafer-Frolich.

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I’m a Keller fan but I sure as hell wouldn’t pay $300 for them! Indeed, I haven’t paid more than half that for the g-max and the abtserde I get for half that again.

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Dan,

It is obvious you have a relationship with a retailer or two who provides the wines for you at a reasonable markup.

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Great answer. Even Karthauserhof had a new Kellermeister in 2009 versus 2008 and I think since 2009 the style has changed for the better. '09 Halenberg is a stunner for sure for Schonleber. I understand the Rebholz controversy but I have been lucky to have too many great older bottles of Rebholz to be affected.

Idig fascinated me in Wiesbaden this summer. Especially the red GG.

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The wine does have the last say, but the three main factors that I see (after vintage) are:

#1 Terroir: If you look at the three top villages in the Pfälzer Mittelhaardt (Forst, Wachenheim, and Deidesheim), you will quickly see that not all GGs are created equal. The Deidesheim Crus tend to be primarily sandstone (Buntsandstein) and are lighter with more citrus fruit, and snappy, racier acidity. The aromas are friendly and very forward. Sandstone warms up quickly and has excellent drainage properties, keeping the berries small (but also limiting available nutrients), and the grapes have rather thin skins, making wines with potentially less complexity and staying power. Though they tend to be the most impressive when young.

The heavier Limestone soils (Muschelkalk) of Wachenheim help to buffer acidity but make wines that taste more acidic, perhaps partially because the wines suggest more mineral, rocky, salty flavors, (the most mineral in the region for many tasters). These wines can be very long-lived, very complex because of the fruit/mineral tension, and also the most chiseled or defined.

Forst, with all of its volcanic Basalt soils makes some of the most complete and exotically flavored wines in Germany. Spices (cinnamon, ginger, allspice), stone-fruit, passion-fruit, and outrageous floral aromas are the hall-mark of Riesling grown on Basalt. The vines want for nothing, as Basalt is extremely mineral-rich and (relatively) quickly breaks down into a clay that holds water and nutrients exceptionally. The grape-skins are thick (protecting against botrytis in most years, but the available water can cause bursting in very wet years). As you move north from the Kirchenstück (which has the highest proportion of Basalt) towards Wachenheim, the soils start to mix with Muschelkalk and sandstone, producing wines with greater-degrees of finesse (first Jesuitengarten and then Pechstein, which is a true Forst/Wachenheim hybrid and many peoples favorite because of that.)

#2 Vine age: Most producers in the Pfalz won’t produce a GG from a vineyard, regardless of its fame, until the vines are at least 15 years old. Wachenheim was one of the first villages in Germany to undergo Flürbereinigung, which is why Bürklin-Wolf with all of its holdings there has some of the oldest vineyards in the region (the exception is Wachenheimer Böhlig, which is newly planted).

#3 Cellar techniques. There are frankly too many different variations and philosophies here to list, but if we very generally take the 3B’s (Bürklin-Wolf, Bassermann-Jordan, and von Buhl), all of whom have parcels in the greatest vineyards of the Mittelhaardt, it is interesting to see why the wines taste different. Von Buhl is generally considered to make the most forward,fruity, easy drinking-style of the three. For the most part, the grapes are whole-cluster pressed and fermented using cultured yeasts. Bassermann does some spontaneous fermentation in both steel and old wood (sometimes new wood), farms Biodynamically, and sometimes adds a proportion of sweeter wine to its GGs (Auslese, BA) to round out the wines and add texture while walking the trocken-line. I for one, really like most of their top wines (and not-so-top wines) and think that they age beautifully. Bürklin-Wolf is the most traditional of the three. Sometimes whole-cluster, but most always spontan-fermentation in large, old oak casks –bottled later than the rest, lots of lees-contact. BW undeniably makes some of the longest-lived dry wines in Germany and also among the most complex. Also Bio-dyn.

Overall, I’d personally say that healthy grapes, some skin maceration, must-oxidation, cask fermentation, long-lees contact, and minimal filtration are a good start after the important requirements of terroir and yield are accounted for.

I have no doubt that the von Winning wines (as polarizing as they may be in their youth) will age into spectacular wines, and I’ll echo what others have said about Koehler-Ruprecht and Rebholz being long-haulers. I like the Christmann Idig a lot too (it is a different, much better wine than even a few years ago). 2009, 2010, and 2011 are masterpieces in waiting.

Cheers,
Bill

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  1. Kellers G-Max is NOT a GG. But still one of this worlds greatest white wines. On par with medium peddigree Montys. And cheaper! Try the 2009, it is sublime (in Europe it costs around 160$, if available)
  2. Kellers Morstein is IMO one of the finest Rieslings on Earth. Year in year out.

Since 2004 in every year the best dry Rieslings have been harvested in Nahe and Rheinhessen with Schonleber, Shafer-Frohlich and Keller as the best producers. Behind them Groebe, Wittmann, Donnhoff etc and of course in some vintages also wines from Pfalz (K-R, Von W, M-C etc)
Personally i but only Kellers RR and Schonlebers R these days. (Dry Rieslings with more RS than GG-level) These Wines deserve much more attention out there.
This is of course a matter of taste. I note that some of the finest reviewers have similar taste [cheers.gif]
Btw why does Shildknecht not participate here. He has very interesting opinions…

/Claus

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Since David Schildknecht is an employee of The Wine Advocate his participation would likely be frowned upon by his employer.