I don’t know for sure. Ulli lists several possible reasons for the sponti stink, including various Böckser (sulfide off-flavors). In addition, the low pH of Mosel Riesling plays an important role, as the free SO2 is much more effective and noticeable, even at lower levels.
Rereading his comments and your summary, it’s pretty clear that it is some form of sulfur one smells, but in many cases that results from the indigenous (non-commercial) yeasts and the fermentation methods rather than to high sulfur doses later in the winemaking.
Except … in Prum’s case, it may be due to the use of a lot of sulfur!
What a good thread. I love to read Ulli Stein’s comments and they make a ton of sense… as do his amazing wines.
I don’t think J.J. Prüm has higher amounts of SO2 than many other producers of Mosel Riesling.
Well we have been here before. Several times!
I think it´s important to separate 2 things. Is German Riesling with RS able to age for a long time? Yes it is. Is it better to drink Kabinett, Spätlese and Auslese when it´s old (+20) or younger (-20). That is a matter of personal taste, storage, vintage, style. And therefore a general statement is senseless. IMO.
It´s always the same – if it´s Riesling, Pinot Noir or Bordeaux. Some like it younger, other older. Who is right? You can answer the question for yourself only and not for anyone else.
I agree that there is a lot of personal taste and style. However, I think there are some more general factors to consider. Like in all regions of the world, terroir is a factor. Just like first growth Bordeaux age better than do most cru bourgeois, so do German wines from certain regions and vineyards age better than wines from other regions and vineyards. I am more likely to drink my villages wines from Germany young and age wines from single vineyards. I am also more likely to age wines from the better vineyards of the MSR or the Rheingau than I am wines from Pfalz. And, then, I am more likely to age wines with residual sugar (and Spatlesen and Auslesen) than I am trocken wines. It is a mix of personal taste and other more objective factors, not one or the other as you continually seem to suggest.
I was taking that from your post on BrooklynGuy’s blog:
J.J. Prüm’s wines often smell of sulfur, because relatively higher amounts of sulfur are used and his wine-making is fairly reductive and tends towards the sweeter style.
Now I’m confused.
Back then, I felt the wines sometimes had both sulfur and sponti notes. The wines seem less stinky now, and Katharina Prüm told me that sulfur levels are not high. I reckon that they add less SO2 than ten years ago.
Why did you delete your earlier comment in regard to sweet reserve? It belongs in the thread.
Yes, I deleted it … because it was at the bottom of page 1 and I figured people might not see the corrections that followed if they didn’t go to page 2. My booboo is there for all to see here on page 2 in quotes.
Howard,
I think I mentioned several aspects in my posts – not all – but not just one or two.
Great thread. Loving the content it is generating.
Now, what about GG’s? What is everyones preferred age to start drinking these?
Or perhaps people won’t go to page 2, so they won’t see my reply to your comment in quotes. All kidding aside, did you see my more recent comment under Ulli’s explanation? It was published on January 30, 2014. The one that you pulled from Brooklynguy’s now defunct blog is from May 13, 2009.
Just summarize it here. Don’t make us chase around.
Come on John, you have to make Lars’ life easy.
In post #89, I already did that.
The January 30, 2014 comment adds no more color to the discussion than what you have already posted here.
That being said, it’s good to go back and review some of the back and forth. There is good information/conversation there. The call out of St. Urbans-Hof wines for the sponti stink certainly rings true for me. I love Nik’s wines, but always have a decanter handy, and tend to leave them in the cellar much longer, hoping that time will deal with the aromas.
You’re right, David. But that’s what I was getting at.
Yes, the wines from Nik Weis often have a marked sponti stink.
I don’t know about other folks, but I am just barely stating to get a handle on the GGs.
Joel Payne has done a “10 years later” tasting of dry German wines for a long time, with increasingly positive results, so I doubt there is an issue with giving the wines some moderate cellar time. My personal stash of these sorts of bottlings only goes back to 2007 (with a few older bottles, but not many). FWIW, a 2007 Donnhoff Dellchen GG was wonderful last week, with plenty of time in hand. That’s just one data point, but a positive one.
My experience of aging GGs is both extremely limited and tangential - specifically only Kunstler’s 2005 Stielweg (not GG or EG) and their Hochheimer Holle (an EG, not a GG). However since they are stylistically similar I may as well share my experiences.
Both were wonderful when young (thank you Lyle for introducing me to them!) then shut down hard, showing almost nothing on the nose or palate. I was keeping my fingers crossed when I finally revisited in 2015 but showed beautifully with a wonderful floral nose and lovely creaminess on the palate. I still have one 2005 Kunstler HH EG which I’m trying to give more age to see what it does.
Unfortunately both have pretty much vanished from US markets.