General German Wine Aging Recommendations

[Howard_Cooper]

@Lars Carlberg

@John Morris

And Sussreserve can be employed only with non-Pradikat wines – wines below Kabinett.

Prädikat wines (Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese) have no sugar added to raise the alcohol, also known as chaptalization.

Süssreserve, or “sweet reserve,” which is partly fermented or unfermented grape juice, can also be added to a Prädikat wine to sweeten it, whether it’s made in a dry or sweet style. Although the Prädikat Wine Estates, as the VDP calls itself in English, wants the Prädikat designations to apply only to unmistakably sweet wines, as was common for Spätlese and Auslese from the 1920s on. Many nonmembers are following along.

Lars, thanks for clarifying.

If one looks at Terry Theise catalogs over the years, he discusses working with a lot of producers tasting wines with various amounts of sussreserve trying to get the balance just right. I have understood that there are some producers who like using sussreserve over stopping fermentation because of the additional control - although the better ones use the unfermented grape juice from the same vineyard and vintage, as I have understood it.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Corey N.

@D@vid Bu3ker

Who here remembers Hochgewachs?*

That’s an easy one.

It’s where Harry Potter went to school.

[Scott_Everson]

What is it about German Riesling that makes people say it is so important to cellar cool-cold? The importance of cooler cellar temps seems to be stressed for Riesling even more so than for other wines. Do people here think my 2015 Prum will spoil when my passive cellar creeps into the mid-high 60s during the hottest days in August?

[Jurgen_Steinke]

Howard,

it´s true that Riesling with RS last longer than dry Riesling. Especially if there is a lot of RS in the wine. So let´s put Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese on the side. But many Spätlese and Auslese (off dry) develop flavors when getting old I don´t like that much. Therefore I prefer them between 10 to 20 years of age. But to be honest: I drink dry Riesling in 90% of the cases. So more sweet Riesling for you.

[Russell_Faulkner]

@Scott Everson

What is it about German Riesling that makes people say it is so important to cellar cool-cold? The importance of cooler cellar temps seems to be stressed for Riesling even more so than for other wines. Do people here think my 2015 Prum will spoil when my passive cellar creeps into the mid-high 60s during the hottest days in August?

Not in the slightest. Assuming you want to drink them before 2050.

[David_Bu3ker]

@Lars Carlberg

@D@vid Bu3ker

Exactly Lars!

Sussreserve has fallen out of favor but it’s allowed.

Who here remembers Hochgewachs?*

*chaptalized QbA

That’s true. But there are a few well-known estates that still use Süssreserve.

Hochgewächs, or “exalted growth,” was an old noble term for a top wine, such as the finest Auslesen. Since 1987, it designates a Riesling Qualitätswein (formerly QbA) that meets certain criteria, such as a rather low minimum must weight of 67 degrees Oechsle.

Of course some producers still use sussreserve. It’s not as popular as it used to be.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Can we name some?

[Claus_Jeppesen]

@Keith Levenberg

No, it’s very much a matter of taste. I can’t tell you how many dinners I’ve been at where some people rave over a 20-year-old riesling and others send it down the dump bucket.

If a great 20 year old riesling is not showing refreshing acidity it is flawed

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Claus Jeppesen

@Keith Levenberg

No, it’s very much a matter of taste. I can’t tell you how many dinners I’ve been at where some people rave over a 20-year-old riesling and others send it down the dump bucket.

If a great 20 year old riesling is not showing refreshing acidity it is flawed

Freshness is not just a matter of acidity, and not everyone prioritizes freshness in the same way. Why is it so hard to accept that tastes can differ?

[Russell_Faulkner]

Perhaps it would help Claus understand if you could list some <20 year old wines from Prum, Muller, Grunhaus, either Haag (not Willi!), etc that might have been dumped for not being fresh.

[Claus_Jeppesen]

@Keith Levenberg

@Claus Jeppesen

@Keith Levenberg

No, it’s very much a matter of taste. I can’t tell you how many dinners I’ve been at where some people rave over a 20-year-old riesling and others send it down the dump bucket.

If a great 20 dyear old riesling is not showing refreshing acidity it is flawed

Freshness is not just a matter of acidity, and not everyone prioritizes freshness in the same way. Why is it so hard to accept that tastes can differ?

I really object to the term “dull”
If a person characterizes a non flawed 20 year old riesling from the producers Russell mentions as dull, then riesling is not the thing for her/him

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Russell Faulkner

Perhaps it would help Claus understand if you could list some <20 year old wines from Prum, Muller, Grunhaus, either Haag (not Willi!), etc that might have been dumped for not being fresh.

I said above that Prum was one of the exceptions to my preference for <20 year rieslings. Grunhaus is another. I don’t buy Muller, too expensive.

[Lars_Carlberg]

@Howard Cooper

@Lars Carlberg

@John Morris

And Sussreserve can be employed only with non-Pradikat wines – wines below Kabinett.

Prädikat wines (Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese) have no sugar added to raise the alcohol, also known as chaptalization.

Süssreserve, or “sweet reserve,” which is partly fermented or unfermented grape juice, can also be added to a Prädikat wine to sweeten it, whether it’s made in a dry or sweet style. Although the Prädikat Wine Estates, as the VDP calls itself in English, wants the Prädikat designations to apply only to unmistakably sweet wines, as was common for Spätlese and Auslese from the 1920s on. Many nonmembers are following along.

Lars, thanks for clarifying.

If one looks at Terry Theise catalogs over the years, he discusses working with a lot of producers tasting wines with various amounts of sussreserve trying to get the balance just right. I have understood that there are some producers who like using sussreserve over stopping fermentation because of the additional control - although the better ones use the unfermented grape juice from the same vineyard and vintage, as I have understood it.

You’re welcome, Howard.

That’s all true enough. But Süssreserve is out of favor among most top-quality producers today, and the result differs markedly from residually sweet wines made by arresting fermentations, as glucose remains in the mixture along with fructose. (I’m repeating almost verbatim a line that I wrote for a piece in The Art of Eating.)

[Lars_Carlberg]

@D@vid Bu3ker

@Lars Carlberg

@D@vid Bu3ker

Exactly Lars!

Sussreserve has fallen out of favor but it’s allowed.

Who here remembers Hochgewachs?*

*chaptalized QbA

That’s true. But there are a few well-known estates that still use Süssreserve.

Hochgewächs, or “exalted growth,” was an old noble term for a top wine, such as the finest Auslesen. Since 1987, it designates a Riesling Qualitätswein (formerly QbA) that meets certain criteria, such as a rather low minimum must weight of 67 degrees Oechsle.

Of course some producers still use sussreserve. It’s not as popular as it used to be.

That’s correct.

[David_K2]

@Keith Levenberg

@Russell Faulkner

Perhaps it would help Claus understand if you could list some <20 year old wines from Prum, Muller, Grunhaus, either Haag (not Willi!), etc that might have been dumped for not being fresh.

I said above that Prum was one of the exceptions to my preference for <20 year rieslings. Grunhaus is another. I don’t buy Muller, too expensive.

Are Prum and Grunhaus exceptions for you because you like the aged character that those particular producers show, or is it that they age so slowly that they taste fresher at 20 than others do at 10?

[Lars_Carlberg]

@John Morris

@D@vid Bu3ker

The sulfur reductions were certainly not all prior to 2000. Rovani went on a sulfur tirade in the WA, regarding either the 2002 or 2003 vintage (I don’t recall which), complaining of “illegal levels” of sulfur.

Well, I’m not sure I’d rely on Rovani! I didn’t even recall him reviewing German wines.

It seems he has a particular aversion to sulfur: http://forums.winespectator.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6826053161/m/911103152

And with regard to Alsatian riesling he claimed “petrol” aromas came from unripe grapes, a view that was disputed by a number of people: https://www.guildsomm.com/stay_current/discussion_forums/f/109/t/170

On eBob years ago he also put forward that incoherent set of explanations for premox in white Burgundies. So I have zero faith is his diagnostic skills when it comes to wine chemistry.

In tastings, I noticed a big difference between (a) the 80s and early 90s and (b) the late 90s and 2000s, when far fewer wines had heavy sulfur notes. The change was dramatic enough that I asked German winemakers about it in the early 2000s.

Perhaps more reduction has taken place since then, but it was pretty marked by then.

A few years ago, I asked Ulli Stein about the stink in Mosel wine. He gave me an answer.

[John_Morris]

Reading that, it’s not clear to me what the chemistry is of the sponti (spontaneous fermentation) “stink.” Is it sulfur in some form? I.e., do the indigenous yeasts produce some form of sulfur not produced by commercial/innoculated yeasts?

It seems like he’s contesting the notion that the sulfur-seeming aromas of some riesling are due to high sulfur additions. OK, but what is it then? I didn’t really see an answer there.

[Howard_Cooper]

This has become a great thread. Thanks.

[David_Mc]

@Howard Cooper

This has become a great thread. Thanks.

So I don’t need to drink up my 2013s anytime soon …

[Howard_Cooper]

@David Mc

@Howard Cooper

This has become a great thread. Thanks.

So I don’t need to drink up my 2013s anytime soon …

If you don’t know, experiment and see what you like best.