Fill levels on old bottles

WINE TALK
1

Hi folks,

I’m thinking about picking up some older bottles, primarily Bordeaux and Burgundy from the 1960’s and 1970’s. My experience with bottles this old is basically nil, so I’m wondering to what extent fill level is an indicator to look out for.

Would at the shoulder or below be considered a warning flag for a possible dead wine? How about just below the cork? - potential counterfeit bottle?

Are the “rules” different for Bordeaux and Burgundy?

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

2

Burgundy (strangely) is rumored to be less impacted by low fills. Generally higher fills = better. I have had good bottles with lower fills, but more unusual. I also have some 1953 and 1959 Bordeaux from minor estates (definitely not worth faking) that came out of a great cellar and high very high fills. They are super! Generally fills fall with age, but low fills compared to expectations on that age generally mean poor treatment (which could include being sold a lot).

In my view (Bordeaux bottles used in many regions):

Anything newer than 1990 should be into the neck

For 1982 should be in the neck or base of neck

For 1970, could be a bit lower.

For 1961, vhs would be my goal.

Anything lower [/list]than hs is risky … no matter how old.

3

Thanks…any chance you’ve tried the '61 or '64 Brane-Cantenac? I vaguely recall hearing rumors of great longevity for this estate’s pre-1970 wines.

4

neither 61 nor 64 BC tasted, but a lot other ´64 Chateaux.

1964 is quite a weak vintage on left bank Medoc, so odds for Brane-C. are not high … but there ARE good wines, not only Latour, also Grand-Puy-L, Leoville-Barton … but e.g. Palmer and Ch.Margaux are not worth investing … the right bank is very successful (St.Emilion, Pomerol, often also Graves)

1961 BC could be good … but this Chateau is not known for producing excellent wines in this period anyway … so (?)

Fills (for 30+ year bottles):
Bx-bottles: anything mid-shoulder or below is high risk, upper-mid “can” be ok, upper or higher shoulder often is ok … sure the higher the better the odds.
Burgundy-bottles - measured in cm from the cork: 4 cm and less rarely a problem, 4-5 cm usually good, 5-6 “can” still be good, 6-7 risky, 7+ very risky … but I even had 8+ cm bottles that were fine (but I suppose with better fill they would have been even finer)…

One should always also check the colour of the wine … is it bright ? or browning ? clear or muddy ?

5

http://bordeaux-traders.com/439/fine-wine/an-introduction-to-wine-bottle-fill-levels-ullage/

6

Fill levels can be important, but to my experience the color and clarity of a wine are far more critical in assessing the likelihood of getting a decent drink. We’ve all had low-fill wines that weren’t very good, but we’ve also had normal fill wines that are also not very good or otherwise mistreated. If you look through an old bottle of red and still see a core of bright red color and perfectly translucent juice in the bottle, you are probably in the clear. Remember, reds lose color with age and with damage, so anything that is amber or lighter colored throughout the middle of the bottle is going to have problems. Bricking at the rim is fine, but the core of that ought to be pure and clean. Any time you see a cloudy bottle you need to give it a day or two standing upright to make sure it isn’t just very fine sediment that has been stirred.

What I do find disconcerting, however, are very young wines with fill problems. I often wonder how much of that could be attributable to modern winemaking techniques or changes in the production of cork, but the fact remains that a lot of young trophy wines are being traded around a lot more often at a younger age than ever before, which only increases the risk that they will be exposed to problems.

7

I agree with all what was said above.
For wines of the 60ies and 70ies, if you are above mid-shoulder, you should have no problem.
If you are at mid-shoulder or lower, the examination of the color is essential.

For older wines, when you are under mid-shoulder, the risk is that the wine is cooked or torrefied. So, take care !

Concerning Brane Cantenac, I had not the 1961, but I had the 1962 which I found splendid.
I had the 1964 which I found tired.
I had the 1959 twice : one perfect, one acceptable.

8

The auction is now complete, and though the bottle of Brane-Cantenac '61 on offer had a good colour with a fill level into the neck, the '64 it was paired with was decidedly less presentable - so I didn’t bother bidding. Winning bid ended up being $600 hammer price, or about $830 with taxes and commission included. Seems crazy high to me. Ditto for the single bottle of Gruaud-Larose '82, mid-shoulder fill, went for around the same price. Thank you all for the good advice, which I will carry forward with me as I explore more old bottles in the future, hopefully in a more reasonable price range.

9

So you mean a 61 Brane-Cantenac paired with a 64 (which one?) went for 830 $ incl. taXes?
And a Gruaud-L. 82 for the same price?

This is completely crazy.

Remember: especially for Bordeaux there is always another (and better) opportunity.

With Burgundy (and some Rhones) it can happen that you will see a certain bottle never again … but Bx is usually always available.

So what.

10

So you mean a 61 Brane-Cantenac paired with a 64 (which one?) went for 830 $ incl. taXes?
And a Gruaud-L. 82 for the same price?

This is completely crazy.

Yes, a single bottle of '61 B-C plus a single bottle of '64 B-C (which looked in poor shape) for $830. And a single of G-L '82 for the same price. Completely crazy, as you said. Plus a 2009 Petrus went for $7500 hammer price, which is well over $10,000 with taxes and commission included. People are insane.

11

[head-bang.gif]

Completely foolish.

I had enough ´61 and ´64 Bordeaux left and right bank.
Most ´64 left banks are weak and not worth more than 30-50 € (taste - not name) … with a few exceptions.
61s can still be very good, and some are out of this world … but I wouldn´t pay 830,- for any bottle except Petrus … not even for Latour.
(rather pay 100,- for a good sip of it).

Let´s have these bottles at these crazy prices for those people who seem to have much more money than brain … [rofl.gif]

4 days ago I had a wonderful bottle of ´82 Ch. Meyney … I think I paid less than 10 $ for it (24 years ago) …
In February: very enjoyable bottle of 85 Leoville-Barton - couldn´t have been more than 18-20,- then …

Who pays 830,- for a B-C 61+64 only states that he simply has NO IDEA … [wink.gif] … but much to much means …