Andrea!!! Where have you been? We NEED you to be here more…
Happy New Year!
Style preferences and quality are, to me different things. So…I can’t argue about style preferences.
Although I have been happy to hear of big improvements in the winemaking equipment/facilities in the last few years (via posts by people such as Jeremy Seyss and in speaking to some producers from the area), I amost uniformly found the Produttori crus to be of poor-middle quality when I followed them (before 2005). And, that’s not a preference…I appreciate and mostly like all styles of Barbaresco that I’ve experienced, though I prefer the more modern (i.e., super careful vineyard practices and precise, clean winemaking, with smaller, newer barrels in some cases). But…though decent values for what they are, I’ve almost never found a Produttori that I’ve cellared or tasted anything but rustic and totally lacking any finesse (except some of the 1996s which I still have; bought after tasting them all.) I was puzzled about this and when I visited in the 2000s I realized that their entire system…as a cooperative…precluded much , if any, control over the viticultural practices and, almost as little control over the temperatures in the vats during winemaking. I had a candid discussion with Aldo Vacca about the situation in the cuverie. That makes me especially happy to hear about their recent upgrades, which were delayed only because of their finances. [And, please keep in mind, I’m not saying they were terrible…just not in the league of several other producers of Barbaresco that come to my mind.)
Style preferences and quality are, to me different things. So…I can’t argue about style preferences.
I amost uniformly found the Produttori crus to be of poor-middle quality when I followed them (before 2005). And, that’s not a preference…[/quote]
Sorry,Stuart,but that is a “style preference”…and you may wish to obfuscate this into the quality realm,but I disagree…and your syllogisms are flawed.
Stuart, I would prefer to drink in the wild style of Produttori if that is what it is. The detail of Sottimano winemaking you highlight “careful vineyard practices and precise, clean winemaking, with smaller, newer barrels” is generally not what I am after, I expect it is the oak I find too much. Cheers Mike
Style preferences and quality are, to me different things. So…I can’t argue about style preferences.
Although I have been happy to hear of big improvements in the winemaking equipment/facilities in the last few years (via posts by people such as Jeremy Seyss and in speaking to some producers from the area), I amost uniformly found the Produttori crus to be of poor-middle quality when I followed them (before 2005). And, that’s not a preference…I appreciate and mostly like all styles of Barbaresco that I’ve experienced, though I prefer the more modern (i.e., super careful vineyard practices and precise, clean winemaking, with smaller, newer barrels in some cases). But…though decent values for what they are, I’ve almost never found a Produttori > that I’ve cellared or tasted anything but rustic and totally lacking any finesse (except some of the 1996s which I still have; bought after tasting them all.) I was puzzled about this and when I visited in the 2000s I realized that their entire system…as a cooperative…precluded much , if any, control over the viticultural practices and, almost as little control over the temperatures in the vats during winemaking.
Respectfully, what you are describing is a style preference. Many of us seek out those traditional, “rustic” wines because we find the cleaner, modern style relatively unappealing. The supposedly poor conditions you describe are misleading. I would argue that Monfortino is one of the world’s greatest wines, and it is produced by uncontrolled, high-temperature fermentation.
Your argument as to “quality” mirrors the traditional vs. modern debate. Unfortunately, those who prefer the modern style tend to disparage the classics as somehow objectively inferior. I think that argument is baseless.
Interesting comments. And not accurate at all.
Ipse dixit???
Which comments aren’t accurate?
Ciao Roberto! How are you?
It’s quite a bit I don’t even lurk here, times are a bit rough here at home, and my thoughts are more on my family rather than on wine. Moreover, I mainly drink old Italian stuff, so I have little to say about new releases, new wines…
Happy New Year!
Kevin…the Free Dictionary defines “rustic” as:
rus·tic (rstk)
adj.
- Of, relating to, or typical of country life or country people. See Synonyms at rural.
a. Lacking refinement or elegance; coarse.
b. Charmingly simple or unsophisticated.
I think this criterion (“rusticity” ) is very very different from the “old” vs. “new” style issue supposedly abounding in Piemonte in recent years (though I found most winemaking hovering a lot closer to the middle when I visited and spoke to winemakers. I have no interest in that “debate”/discussion, and have no strong preferences, though I prefer the more modern wines, which I find more full of finesse, which I treasure. But, I own/love and respect the wines of Giacomo Conterno and Giusseppe Mascarello, both “old style” producers. (I visited those latter estates a decade ago, tasted with their owners and saw their facilities.) Neither place, in my opinion, makes “rustic” wines…by a long shot. They both had very sophisticated equipment and consciously choose to make the style of wine they made. This was not due to resources or limited technology. And, nothing was “unclean” about them (or about Produttori.)
Produttori to me is a whole 'nother case. For whatever style they’re making (like most I visited, I think their goal is the middle, as well), they made “rustic” wines. I talke to Aldo Vacca about it and he candidly admitted that they lacked the resources to make wines they way he aspired to. Among the things they lacked was temperature control during the winemaking and during the elevage. (And, in my opininion, this lacking will be sufficient to result in rustic, ie, wines lacking elegance/finesse, ie., coarse, though not necessarily all the time, maybe.) I felt this way somewhat before that 5 day tasting stay. When I tasted there vis a vis other places…in the “new” style or old style “camps”, I became more and more convinced that Aldo was making “rustic” wines.
People might like this. Some people love 2004 red burgundies. Some people lament the extinction of “barnyardy” red Burgundies of pre-1990s. But, that someone likes something doesn’t mean it’s not flawed.
You seem to suggest that “cleaner”= “modern”, suggesting that lower hygeine standards=old style. I think that confuses the issue. All good winemaking, IMO, mandates great hygeine, no matter the style. (And, to be clear, though I visited some wineries in Piemonte that I considered not all that “clean”, I don’t think Produttori was in that group, either; that’s not what I’m saying about their wines of the era before they recently seriously upgraded their winemaking equipment. The equipment and their set-up was rudimentary (I could be more specific.)
Maybe the issue is one of semantics, but , to me, “rustic” is not a compliment in evaluating a wine in the 21st century. No one strives for it that I know of. It’s not a matter of “preferences”, I think. The “old” vs. “new” style issue is a matter of preference, but that’s not what I’m talking about. Those wines are made by choice…whether they are good or bad examples of those “styles”.
I’m sure the oracle on mount boykin will disagree with me, but…
Stuart, you need to revisit Produtorri, perhaps a 08 Asili or Rabaja.
Mike…I’ve been told, as stated above, that the winemaking control situation there has improved greatly in recent years with new and more sophisticated equipment/ controls. My experience stopped in the mid 2000s…and I have no idea when things changed there.
And, I know that a few credible people liked their wines even before the improvements.
Let me see if I get this straight… ![[swoon.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/f/f425e8dac3e7344bee264da02e55428971be23a9.gif "swoon"){kind=small}
I have no strong preferences though I prefer…
Stuart,here,high on Mt. Boykin,I could care less what you prefer,but you are talking with rocks in your mouth.If you don’t prefer the style of the Produttori wines,fine,but you are tripping over your feet in your attempts to describe them and gargling style and preference with little or no meaning…maybe you should enquire into their winemaker’s psychological impulses that go into creating the Produttori style…
Stuart –
I wish I had a dollar for every time you’ve posted:
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That the Produtorri wines lack refinement because their equipment wasn’t very sophisticated – at least not when you visited more than a decade ago.
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2004 Burgundies are irredeemably green.
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The only interesting thing about the Rudy K case is the psychology involved.
We need some fresh ideas, man!
Mike…I’ve been told, as stated above, that the winemaking control situation there has improved greatly in recent years with new and more sophisticated equipment/ controls. My experience stopped in the mid 2000s…and I have no idea when things changed there.
And, I know that a few credible people liked their wines even before the improvements. Like, I said, I was impressed with their '96s (and thought them good values) and still am. I have feeling that that vintage didn’t require temperature control, etc. to make well…
Bill…there are certain few self-impressed people on WB I can never satisfy…and have no interest in doing so. I try not to respond to them, and didn’t respond to your last post, either. I’m trying to participate in a discussion, not attack posters. I think you are generally FOS when I do read your posts, and are almost unique in that role on this board, which is why I think of you as an oracle (or, less politely, an orifice.) Feel free to ignore me.
John, we all need some fresh ideas, man.
Sometimes, we just plug in the same ideas into new discussions, true. Most of us don’t change much here…or come to a wineboard to change, but to offer opinions and learn what others are thinking. Nothing much more meaningful happens on such places.
I’ll try to be fresher in 2014.
We will all support you (and others) in this effort!
Me, too…
who is “we”? I thought you were part of the reformers with me?
You mean you’re not joining in the effort to be “fresher”?
So…I can still look forward to your periodic summaries of my repetitive comments on new threads?
Maybe your next best selling book should be on free speech on wineboards…and the need to regulate it better.
You’re way too combative,complicated and convoluted ,Stuart…not to mention thin skinned.
Lighten up.You don’t need to satisfy anyone.Nobody hates you…
Phew, thanks for the advice…now I can sleep better.
What’s the zipcode “up” there, so I can send payment.