Entry level and grand vins

Hi all

A recent comment got me thinking a bit. A WB’er said they’d order a cheaper cuvée along with an Echezeaux to get a read on the house style. So, which “entry-level” wines do you find mirror the expression of the top cuvées of any given maker you’re well acquainted with? To me, this is not a question that demands that a Bourgogne Blanc must reflect the taste of CBM or other rarer climats, because they obviously exist on their own merits.

Fx. to me, Jamet CdR mirrors the bigger cuvees fine.
Labet Fleur could pass for the rarer bottlings.
Chateau des Tours Grand Reserve gives an OK read on what Rayas is about.

*sorry as always if this thread already exists but I couldn’t find one.

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I can’t talk about Burgundy since I’m not really a drinker but I don’t think it works with Bordeaux on the whole. As for the Loire, whether white or red, drinking entry level wines does tend to give a very good idea of what to expect with the more expensive bottles.

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The best producers make wine that is just as excellent at the bottom as at the top though there will certainly be a difference.

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I think this works pretty well for Langhe Nebbiolo and higher end Barolos. I’ve bought new release LNs to get a read on (forthcoming) Barolo vintages from producers like Vajra, Vietti, Bartolo Mascarello, Trediberri, Burlotto, Fratelli Alessandria, Sandrone, and some others.

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Here are a few that spring to mind…

Donnhoff RIesling
Felton Road Bannockburn Pinot Noir
@MadsW Chateau des Tours
Dujac MSD Village
Mugnier Village
Felsina Chianti Classico
Lopez de Heredia Cubillo
Guiberteau Samur Blanc and Rouge
Kumeu River Estate Chardonnay

lots more obviously!

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Yes that was my thought too, but many experiences in the past made me wonder a bit. I think in time a discrepancy has also happened elsewhere— there was a day too, when a Mercedes A class would be fitted with interior and engine that would give you a taste of what the overall quality was.
In recent years, for burgundy, only a Lamy Chataigniers and Lou Dumont comes to mind as entry levels overdelivering.

@Julian_Marshall Yes I agree with this. Loire producers are good with this overall. Admirable.

@R_Frankel I will consider this next time shopping. Thank you

@brodie_thomson Yes my tasting at Felton comes to mind. The ‘simple’ wine stood strong against Block 5 and 3. Donhoff and many other rieslings too speak well of what the exclusive bottlings can do. Thanks for the list.

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What a good idea for a tasting.

That feels very true.
In the Mosel: Willi schaefer and Schloss Lieser come to mind

Mads - I’m not sure I agree on Jamet. The bbq meat aspect is missing for me from the CdR while the blood/iron/integration is all there.

I think Gonon would be my Nothern Rhone example.
Hmm…Though the pricing on Iles is larger than Jamet CdR

Rod de Cambes

Walter Scott La Combe Verte

Feels like champagne should have plenty of these.

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A tasting! yes. That’s not a bad idea.

Yeah it needs a bit more meat, you’re right! But it sure gives me a better read on the house style than what the “Chave Selection” wines does.

Yeah Iles is a fine example! Love it.

And Champagne absolutely yes, it holds so many QPR winners and opposites in the prestige category.

Here here.

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I’m not sure how well that holds.

In Montalcino, I prefer entry level Brunello’s, and even the Rosso’s, to the Riservas for many producers due to barrique use vs. big foudre’s.

Same it true often in Chianti, especially after the introduction of Grand Selectione.

In Bordeaux, the entry level’s of first growths don’t communicate to me that much.

While it’s true that if I like a wineries high end cuvee, then I’ll often like the whole line up, the reverse isn’t true for wineries that use 100% or 200% new oak on their high end wines.

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Yes this definitely my feeling as well. I don’t find the Riservas to be better most of the time.

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That can indeed be an issue in some regions, and I wholeheartedly agree with your comment.

I think perhaps the discrepancy is bigger in Burgundy, Rhone and Bordeaux.

Isn’t this more a question of age? I had older Jamet CDR that showed more meaty notes and young Jamet Côte-Rôtie that didn’t show it that much.

For me the very meaty smoked notes come with age on Jamet Côte-Rôtie (and other NR Syrah’s)

It’s a good question. Kinda?

As the wine ages, the fruit falls out due to oxidization and the savory notes certainly pop more. If I am awkwardly dancing in a room with 100 people and then 85 people leave, my awkward dancing will be more noticeable.
Polymerization of tannins smooths out the texture and gives a roundness (which I associate with cured bqq meat as opposed to smoked flavors).
There is also some chemical thing around “bound” aroma which release over time, but I haven’t put in the time to understand the science (maybe one of our chemists can chime in).

For me, this is all secondary development and as the CR hits really upward age these meaty notes fade to leather and truffle etc.

But they come from grape originally. rotundone / and certain volatile phenols are naturally occurring in Syrah and those things give peppery, smoky, and cured-meat aromas. Also Sulfur-containing compounds which do an umami dance (scientific term).

Actually that feels a little misleading, I believe longer macerations extract more amino acids and phenolics so that’s a wine making choice right there and not just grape related.

Oh bother, guess it’s complicated. I’ll stick with “kinda” as my answer.

Anecdotally, I had both Jamet CdR and CR 2020 two months ago and there was no smokey meaty note in the CdR.

Looking at my notes, I mostly am drinking the '21 CdR, which is more of a classic year. Rotundone survives better at lower temps (or winemaker can pick earlier to similar effect?) so I would expect to find it there

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also something about schist in the Cote Brune vineyards, but I’ve never understood that

I find CLB (Liger Belair)'s entry level wines mirrors their top end bottlings in terms of house style…

of course not the same in many ways, but house style is persistent in just about all his bottlings.

Thanks for the long answer.

I’ve had the 2012 and 2010 CDR at around age 8 and 12 and they certainly showed a more meaty character I don’t get a lot of when they are young.

I had the 2016, 2018 and 2021 Côte-Rôtie’s at release and the meaty character was certainly not what I took most note of, but I rarely do in young Jamet (Or NR Syrah overall), thats something I’ve mostly experienced when they hit 15+.

But as you say, then maybe I just don’t notice it that much when they are younger as other notes might grab my attention.

CLB = Ligier Belair? Leoville Barton? Clos du Bois?

ah oops… Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair

A couple of examples in Burgundy that come to mind.

Red: Domaine Dujac MSD 1er cru is a good canary in the coal mine for the higher end Malconsorts, CSD and CdlR.

White: Pierre-Yves Colin-Morey Saint Aubin en Remilly is usually representative of the more exalted Crus in the cellar.

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