It was stated in another thread that it does, in particular that excessive phenolic ripeness can affect flavor negatively. I was under the impression that phenolic ripeness was more about structure and texture and any affect on flavor is minimal at most. Inquiring minds want to know.
Michael,
Not an easy question to answer for one needs to first define ‘phenolic ripeness’ - and I’m not sure there is agreement about that at all.
To me, the term refers to the ripening of skin and seed tannins, along with the skins of the berries themselves, that takes place during harvest. But one winemaker’s ‘ripe’ is another’s ‘under-ripe’, etc.
Not trying to be snarky - would love to know what note you were referring to to put into better context.
Cheers.
I think Larry’s right. It’s not a term with universal agreement so definitive commentary is challenging.
There is an excellent article in this month’s World of Fine Wine on the subject of ripeness. It’s by an English writer, Jamie Goode; it is very detailed, and will be in several parts, but I think the first installment answers your question. The answer is yes.
(Disclaimer I have written for them, but like the magazine enough to actually pay for it)
To me, discussing the concept of ‘phenolic ripeness’ is no different than discussing the concept of ‘balance’ - way too much left to subjectivity. That’s not a bad thing - it just is . . .
You can take a cluster of grapes and ask 10 different winemakers individually whether they felt that the grapes exhibited ‘phenlic ripeness’, and my guess is that you’d get at least 7 different answers, ranging from ‘hell no - not enough’ to ‘hell yes - too much’ and everything in between.
There is certainly a ‘fallacy’ that one can judge the subject just based on the color of the seeds, or the ‘crispness’ of the seeds when eating them, or the color of the skins, or the fact that the seeds easily separate from the pulp, or the fact that the skins are starting to soften, or the fact that the juice when squeezed is starting to show a specific color, etc.
At the end of the day, it’s all subjective.
Here’s a fairly good overview: Phenolic content in wine - Wikipedia
To the specific question, and very broadly speaking, these compounds develop under ripening, then, some being volatile, will begin to dissipate. So, with extended hang time you can lose aromatic complexity. But, that can depend on the site, grape variety, canopy management and so forth. There can also be some give and take. where style preference or quirks of the variety may mean you’re gaining more good stuff than you’re losing, or there might be undesirable character you want to lose.
There is certainly a ‘fallacy’ that one can judge the subject just based on the color of the seeds, or the ‘crispness’ of the seeds when eating them, or the color of the skins, or the fact that the seeds easily separate from the pulp, or the fact that the skins are starting to soften, or the fact that the juice when squeezed is starting to show a specific color, etc.
Those are metrics that may work just fine for a specific site. So, it’s understandable a grower may think that. But…
Yes!
Harumph…if I posed a question like that here, Buecker would be all over me for ![[stirthepothal.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/f/f40faec63ca1018898a40805efbf9f0066a3d205.gif "[stirthepothal.gif]"){kind=small}
and being a troll!!! 
I think Larry is pretty much right on. It’s sort of a matter of the winemaker’s
perception. One winemaker’s “ripe” is another’s “overripe”.
It’s clear that the degree of ripeness impacts the flavor, not just structure & texture. Matthews addresses this very well in his book.
And, of course, we all “know” that (over-) phenolic ripeness destroys the terroir
of the grapes.
Tom
Ceding the relativity of it all, I would not think that there are very many winemakers who desire harsh tannins in their wine regardless whether or not they are aiming for short termed consumption or longer term aging. This is just speculation on my part but I would think desired sugar ripeness often precedes desired phenolic ripeness. So one would sometimes have to allow greater sugar ripeness than desired to accomplish the desired level of phenolic ripeness, but would want it to be done at the absolute minimum to avoid harsh tannins. Where am I going wrong?
There are many, many layers to the question your asking.
The tannin make up of the different red grapes varies dramatically. While color comes quickly in fermentation, tannin extraction is slower, and also altered by ferment temperature, oxygen exposure, and cap management. Post fermentation maceration also alters tannins, as does the use of whole cluster.
Green tannins in your wines? Solution can be to add more tannins.
If you’re worried about getting over ripe phenolics while waiting for sugar, why not pick at phenolic ripeness and chaptalize? Chaptalization certainly has less impact than dealing with harsh tannins.
Your question is a good one but I don’t think you will find a simple answer.
Without a shadow of a doubt, yes… But I would phrase it a bit differently: “the amount of phenolic ripeness achieved will result in certain flavor characteristics, all other things being equal.” Certainly winemaker choices can impart other characteristics in the flavors as well.
And then there’s the phrase ‘over ripeness’…
While understanding that this is a complex issue, I’m still not clear how it is that phenolic ripeness affects aroma and flavor in wine. I’m not clear whether increased phenolic ripeness generally affects wine in a positive or negative way. Is there such a thing as too much phenolic ripeness? And is it generally accepted that to achieve sufficient phenolic ripeness one must most often accept a higher level of sugar ripeness?
I’ve never had too much phenolic ripeness, but there comes a point where if you achieve more the grapes are too much a hot mess to work with due to the length of hang time. Green and harsh->smooth and ripe is under to optimal+ from a tasting perspective.
The Wikipedia article on phenolic content in wine provides some reasonably good sound bites which address the question. “the concentration of flavonols in the grape berries increases as they are exposed to sunlight.”. Concentration of anything will change the taste. My layman interpretation is that the phenols being produced don’t necessarily “mature” but they increase in number (possibly not all in sync with some phenols increasing in number more rapidly than others?). The more of any one phenol packed into a grape the more the final taste of the grape “matures” / trends in that direction.
Disclaimer: I don’t make wine and am not an organic chemist. I just slept at a Holiday Inn last night.
As I noted above, at a certain point some of the phenolics begin to decline with hangtime. These were originally forest vines that needed to attract birds from miles away to come help spread their seeds.
If you look at the wiki you’ll get an idea how many types of phenolic compounds there are. Then think of each type as an independent equation, each of which will be dependent on site, canopy management and so forth, rather than translatable. Then each curve progresses as a factor of time and external influences. Then realize that some peak, then may begin to decline. The rest will hit an eventual limit due to capacity or senescence. But, past senescence the grapes are losing water, the ratio of those phenolics will increase even if they are no longer being produced. Simple. And that’s just the phenolics.
Is more always better?
Is more always more? Some people want the biggest wine possible and don’t care about volatile aromatics. Some people want the most volatile aromatics possible and don’t care the weight of a wine. (A few sites, under the right hands, can deliver both.) Many other people think too much of either is too much. Preferences and aversions are all over the place.
There is also a point where one can no longer detect an increase in phenolics and to some extent too much can lead to a wine not tasting as good. Again, these levels will vary from person to person so there isn’t one true level you can say is too much but at some point too many phenolics will leave the taster unable to differentiate between them and the wine can lose focus. This is not just tannins but also anthocyanins. Wines with more anthocyanins (Malbec, Petite Sirah, Petite Verdot) can taste muddy with too much extraction. You taste the wine and other than it being red wine it is hard to distinguish it as a certain variety or coming from a certain place. Your palette is just overwhelmed.
This becomes an armchair philosophers’ debate at some point as the grapes will turn to sugary mush before it gets too phenolically ripe, lacking of any characteristics that anybody would want to drink…minus a couple stickier exceptions…
Well - here’s a challenge for you.
A few years back, when things ripened really quickly, I went out to check a vineyard that I get Grenache from. Now please note - Grenache is a somewhat late ripener and therefore sees sugars well about 25 brix in most years.
I went to check my rows very early on in harvest and noticed that everyone around me had already picked . . . except me! I walked my rows, tasting grapes and noting ‘phenolic ripeness’. Here’s what I found:
Yep - plenty of sugar and sweetness
Green Seeds
Seeds sticking to pulp
Very bitter, harsh skins
In a situation like this, you can choose to pick based on sugar and disregard ‘phenolic ripeness’ or let em hang a bit longer in hopes of getting the ripeness desired, hopefully without further spikes in sugar.
Your call - what do you do!?!?
Cheers.
Larry, Wes, Blake and Brett – I have a related question: Can brix rise after picking?
These quotes from a roundtable linked to in another thread seem to be saying that. How can that be after picking?
Do you add H2O when the grapes come in?
Unanimous: Always!
Tolbert: We’re just continuing the irrigation cycle. Especially with Zinfandel, for example, which can be 24.5° Brix in the crusher, is 25.5° the next day, is 26.5° the third day and the Brix goes up even at the beginning of fermentation. If you are not adding water, then you will end up with 18 percent alcohol or a stuck fermentation. It is a no brainer with Zinfandel. The trick is not over-adding or under-adding. The rule of thumb is 7 gallons of water per ton for 1° Brix drop, but the challenge is that the higher the Brix, the harder it is to know what the real sugar is. I would never add post-fermentation.
MacRostie: Charlie covered it well. If you are picking grapes based on the winemaker’s palate and you are tasting grapes, making a timely pick at say 25.5° Brix, you might be concerned about 15.5 percent alcohol. A modest amount of water can be added to achieve an alcohol level that gives proper balance to your wine. In California, we always have sugar ripeness that gets ahead of other things, so we are faced with that challenge every year. Picking ripe fruit with good tasting grapes and delivering balanced wine without excessive alcohol is the ultimate goal.
Sternfeld: With our high-Brix grapes, we are often dealing with 26° to 28° Brix. We usually let it soak overnight before we do our final Brix analysis to determine how much water to add. We would theoretically like to start fermentation around 25.5° Brix. We’ll look at it 24 hours later to see if it needs a bit more. We have to use water, or it won’t ferment to dryness.
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