Do Burgundy lovers like Piedmonte?

[Bob_Hughes]

Yeah, BIll Klapp nailed the description of the similarities, although I am best described as a Piemonte wine lover who also drinks Burgs.

[Mark_PACH]

@Chris McCart

Like a lot, don’t love.
In my own opinion, I find well aged Hermitage sharing more in common with Burgundy than Barolo does.

Yes, for sure! We had a 1990 M. Chapoutier Hermitage that was served blind and the consensus guess was aged Chambertin.

Also, I agree with another comment that talks about the convergence of tertiary notes - which begs to ask the question, why have a Barolo that resembles a Burg when you can just have a Burg instead? The tarry rosiness of Barolo in the secondary stage is so much more interesting… anyway, .

[Ken_V]

Some Burgundy lovers are sophisticated enough to like the wines of Piedmont, and some are not.

[k_s_h_i_n]

@Chris McCart

Like a lot, don’t love.
In my own opinion, I find well aged Hermitage sharing more in common with Burgundy than Barolo does.

Fully matured Hermitages and other northern Rhones are very similar to Burgundies. IMO when young, how the concentrated fruit is expressed in a subtle sappy way and the tannins that are resonating as the end notes are some of the common qualities. However I don’t find the nose expression of the fruits similar. As Bill said also the noticeable truffles in some of the wines. Also the bright acidity without the masking jammy blue fruits.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Mark PACH

Also, I agree with another comment that talks about the convergence of tertiary notes - which begs to ask the question, why have a Barolo that resembles a Burg when you can just have a Burg instead?

If the tertiary notes of Burgundy, Nebbiolo and N. Rhone wines converge, at what point does one stop thinking in terms of varietal character? It’s evident there are only a handful of varieties that can age reliably to the tertiary stage. But it seems like they are more vessels for aging 20+ years. The varietal character takes a back seat at some point along the way.

[k_s_h_i_n]

@G. D y e r

@Mark PACH

Also, I agree with another comment that talks about the convergence of tertiary notes - which begs to ask the question, why have a Barolo that resembles a Burg when you can just have a Burg instead?

If the tertiary notes of Burgundy, Nebbiolo and N. Rhone wines converge, at what point does one stop thinking in terms of varietal character? It’s evident there are only a handful of varieties that can age reliably to the tertiary stage. But it seems like they are more vessels for aging 20+ years. The varietal character takes a back seat at some point along the way.

Based on my experience, it will take 50+ years to remove decent amount of the varietal character and over 80 years to remove most.

[dr0ch]

@Bill Klapp

Good thread, and the answer is clearly yes for me. It is a shame that access to many of the finest old Nebbioli is so difficult, because the old wines prove the similarity, while younger wines may make the comparison seem a stretch. Great Pinot Noir and Nebbiolo often converge with age, exhibiting various earth, truffle and floral (typically violet or rose) elements, as well as sweet, enticing red fruit flavors (black fruit less often). Up to a point, Nebbiolo displays its classic “road tar” aroma, which would allow one to readily distinguish it from most Burgundies. However, the road tar note often fades in old Nebbioli, and the line between the wines blurs.

This.

[Dick_Krueger]

Piedmont was the next region after Burgundy that we began collecting.

[Guillaume_Deschamps]

@Ken V

Some Burgundy lovers are sophisticated enough to like the wines of Piedmont, and some are not.

I kept hearing about wines from Piedmont and how I was supposed to enjoy them, which at the time I didn’t. Then some “sophisticated Burg lovers” in the US were kind enough to open a few old Barolos for me and this was an epiphany. I enjoy the wines of that region (much more than e.g. Tuscany, which is ok but not special in my book), even though my exposure is limited to a few producers only (including Vajra, though).

[Jim_Anderson]

After Burgundy (and Oregon Pinot of course) it’s Piedmonte wines for me. Produttori is actually our largest volume by winery in our cellar. That being said it is very difficult, IMO, to follow up really terrific Burgundy with Barbaresco/Barolo.

Had a 2004 Elio Altare Barolo with my rib-eye Thanksgiving dinner (terrific) and a 375 of Arlot NSG 1er Cru to follow up with. Good stuff.

[Sanjay_Nandurkar]

@Bill Klapp

Good thread, and the answer is clearly yes for me. It is a shame that access to many of the finest old Nebbioli is so difficult, because the old wines prove the similarity, while younger wines may make the comparison seem a stretch. Great Pinot Noir and Nebbiolo often converge with age, exhibiting various earth, truffle and floral (typically violet or rose) elements, as well as sweet, enticing red fruit flavors (black fruit less often). Up to a point, Nebbiolo displays its classic “road tar” aroma, which would allow one to readily distinguish it from most Burgundies. However, the road tar note often fades in old Nebbioli, and the line between the wines blurs.

One apocryphal fact that strongly suggests the tie is the ready acceptance that the Piemontese have for Burgundy, when they are otherwise rigid and chauvinistic in their preference for their own wines. And, of course, there is the oft-cited “finicky grape” tie of Pinot Noir to Nebbiolo, and the fact that, pre-global warming, both locales had significant annual weather problems that limited each area to only several strong vintages per decade. As that is no longer the case, it will be interesting to see if the warm-weather Burgundies and Nebbioli of the 21st century will continue to exhibit common characteristics. (I did take Piemontese friends to a Slow Food-sponsored tasting of all of the 2002 Dugat-Py crus except his Chambertin, and while his Burgundies are a little “internationally styled” for some classicists, my friends nonetheless loved the event.) I second Giacosa, Giacomo Conterno and wines like Aldo Conterno’s elegant 1989 Barolo Gran Bussia, but I would probably mistake the older single-vineyard Barbareschi of Gaja for Burgundy more often than not. I am confident that I could serve Allen Meadows the 1971 Gaja San Lorenzo and have him scratching his head trying to decide which Vosne-Romanee vineyard the wine came from!

Would be interesting to evaluate older wines from Burgundy and Piedmont side by side to access style convergence and others aspects of character and commonality between these tow regions.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@S Nandurkar

It is argued that Barolo and Barbaresco wines share some similarity with Burgundy.

So that begs the question how many Burg lovers also like Barolo and Barbaresco wines?

Whether there are any particular producers that are preferred?

Personally, over the past decade my exposure to Piedmonte wines has increased and I have developed a greater fondness for Barbarescos than Barolos esp those from Giacosa and Gaja. One is traditional and one arguably more modern.

I, too, generally have a “greater fondness” for Barbaresco than Barolo. I’ve felt this way for a long time, but a 2004 trip sealed it. I love Sottimano’s wines and Cigliuti’s particularly. (I can take or leave Paitin and can leave the Produtorri, which reminds me of what much of Burgundy was like when I first started paying attention in the early-mid '80s: rustic.)

In Barolo, I love the wines of Elio Grasso and like Vajra’s, too.

In some ways, I think the affinity is more for the type of region and ownership (artisanal, smallish producers) , as much as the commonality between the nebbiolo and pinot noir grapes, which aren’t all that similar. Though, I also think that , in some ways, much of what we consider “traditional” Piedmont wines/winemaking and that which was considered “traditional” Burgundian wines/winemaking when I first started, is due to lack of hygiene in the winery and in the aging wood. The “barnyard” of “traditional” Burgundy certainly was…and much of the astringency in “traditional”, manly Barolo , I think, was.
How’s that for an innocuous theory?

And, many of the producers there I visited seem to think of Burgundy and their ideal, which surprised me.

[John_Oglesby]

Nebbiolo is Pinot in a glove of iron. I absolute love Piemonte, and wish I had the cajones to pull a Ray Walker out that way.

That said, it has to be a given that if you are a fan of Bourgogne, you are a fan of Piemonte. And if you are a fan of those two regions, then you are also a big believer in the Northern Rhone.

[Scott_Brunson]

@John Oglesby

Nebbiolo is Pinot in a glove of iron. I absolute love Piemonte, and wish I had the cajones to pull a Ray Walker out that way.

That said, it has to be a given that if you are a fan of Bourgogne, you are a fan of Piemonte. And if you are a fan of those two regions, then you are also a big believer in the Northern Rhone.

poetry, sheer poetry!

[Tyler_McAfee]

I do, although I prefer the more finessed, traditional wines. As with Burgundy, the nose is what really does it for me.

[SteveC]

Absolutely!!

But they must be aged minimum of 10 years, and ideally 15+ years generally.

Favs are Conterno, Giacossa, Produttori, Mascarello, along with many others as well

[Jay_Miller]

I like Piedmont very very much, but when it comes to love for red wines outside of Burgundy I am more likely to look the Loire, N. Rhone, old style Riojas and (I realize this puts me in a substantial minority) Tuscany. Sangiovese from a non-modernist producer and some age on it has a beauty that I respond to more intensely than I do to a great Barolo.

[Robert_Thornton]

I sometimes think there are two kinds of Burg lovers: those who also like Barolo and those who also like Northern Rhone. I like both but if I had to choose one red wine region after Burgundy, it would be Barolo/Barbaresco.

Cheers,
-Robert

[Efrain_Rodriguez]

As far as Piedmont & Burgundy are concerned, I think if you prefer wines with more ‘finesse’ like Volnay & Chambolle then you tend to prefer Barolos from the regions of La Mora and Barolo versus wines such as Serralunga.

[Markus_S]

Is this a trick question? Because of course the answer is a resounding ‘yes’, the same way I like other regions like the Loire, the Rhone north and south, southern Italy, Germany, the Basque regions, Bordeaux, etc. I think you get the point. Why would I Not like another wine region? Oh yeah, there’s the Southern Hemisphere…

Seriously though, nebbiolo and pinot noir are to me totally different beasts and I get no sense of their similarity while drinking them. I think when people say the regions are similar, is that both Burgundy and Piedmont approach winemaking as growers-winemakers, farmers and small scale producers versus the model in Tuscany or Bordeaux or California, where the growing and making are done more by absentee landlords. Also, in the fact that vineyard plot matters.