Discussion: style of old vs new Cali Cabs

Dominus uses a higher percentage of Cab Franc IIRC than most…it is an excellent choice.

I would add:

Togni
Mondavi Reserve
Insignia - although price increases the last few vintages leave this probably above your price tolerance.
Laurel Glen
Mt Eden
Tom Eddy
Sherwin Family - big but great tannin structure for aging.
Ridge Monte Bello
Verite - very good wines, classicly structured…

Im approaching this question from the opposite direction. I much prefer the here and now, and wines like these, while clearly well made, dont float my boat. FWIW I think Corra is a huge wine, and one of my favorites. Some Montebellos have been pretty big and sweet as well. Otherwise, to your list I would add Seavey, Dominus and Spottswoode. The single Vineyard KLs maybe as well.

I’m not a huge Togni fan for early drinking, but have to agree here if you are going to age it. Also good call on Sherwin Family! I have to try some Verite, K-J has to have some good grapes laying around for that program. Also I see Laurel Glen popping up quite a bit…hmmm…I may have to look into those as well.

Cheers.

GD
try to see if you can get in and see and taste at Kapcsandy
i really think they are makinga less ripe, but well made cali wine ??
and perhaps a touch of graves???
k

If I were buying for the long haul, I would purchase:(in addition to the Laurel Glen, & Mondavi mentioned)

Stag’s Leap Wine Cellars Cabernet Sauvignon Cask 23
Caymus Special Selection
Shafer One Point Five (closer to the hillside than the reg cab ever was)
Schrader
Any Heidi Barret wine in that price range
Jones Sisters (one to watch since now under TRB)
Ed Sbragia’s higher end Sbragia cab line
KL Reserves and designates

The ability of many of todays stars to please today worries me about expecting too much from them in the distant future.

Not speaking from experience, but more than a few folks have noted significant style changes at Mondavi and Laurel Glen recently. So they may no longer be exemplars of the “old” style. Mondavi certainly was into the late 90s.

FWIW, here are some TNs from a recent tasting…

'80S AND '90S CALIFORNIA CAB TASTING W/ BOB MACDONALD - Our House (5/11/2009)

My friend Bob Macdonald and his tasting group buddies have been collecting California Cabs for many years. I was curious to check in on my lone bottle of 1994 Insignia, so I offered to host a tasting of '80s and '90s Cabs. All of the wines were purchased upon release. The bottles were popped and poured, with many receiving quick decants for sediment. My WOTN was a marvelous '85 Heitz Martha’s Vineyard, courtesy of Steve O’Hara.

Two 1980s Wines

  • 1984 Diamond Creek Cabernet Sauvignon Red Rock Terrace - USA, California, Napa Valley, Diamond Mountain
    The nose shows a faint whiff of VA. Deep, minty, and interesting, with lovely ripe raspberry and earthy tobacco flavors. The fruit turns a touch raisened and pruny with time in the glass. Fully mature, and probably a touch past its prime. (89 pts.)
  • 1987 Beringer Vineyards Cabernet Sauvignon Private Reserve - USA, California, Napa Valley
    Beautiful nose. Lively and long on the palate. Layers of dark fruit, earth, fresh red raspberries, and coffee, leading to a long finish wrapped in ultra-fine tannin. Suave texture. A mid-weight, complex, beautifully balanced Cab with plenty of life ahead. Fantastic. (94 pts.)

1994 Insignia and Araujo

  • 1994 Joseph Phelps Insignia - USA, California, Napa Valley
    To my palate, 1994-1996 were transition years for Insignia. During these vintages, Phelps began moving towards a more extracted, riper, higher-alcohol style, as exemplified by the 1997. The 1994 is stylistically a bridge between the '70s and '80s Insignias, which are aging beautifully, and the more modern examples of this wine (see my TNs from our 1974-2004 Insignia vertical dinner for more thoughts). This bottle was the fourth time I’ve tasted the '94, and it showed beautifully. A step up in power and concentration compared with the more mid-weight '87 Beringer Private Reserve, tasted side-by-side (see TN). The nose shows expressive dark fruit that just screams Napa. On the palate, this is powerful, rich and still young, with complex flavors of smoke/campfire, blackberries, chocolate, and cigar ash. Full throttle, but so balanced and smooth. (94 pts.)
  • 1994 Araujo Estate Cabernet Sauvignon Eisele Vineyard - USA, California, Napa Valley
    Initially more reticent on the nose than the '94 Insignia, tasted side-by-side (see TN), this quickly unfolded to reveal a beautifully complex range of dark fruit, smoke, earthy underbrush, and coffee flavors. On the palate, this is velvety smooth, ripe, elegant, and long, with superb fruit and impeccable balance. A beautiful wine that is aging superbly and has many more years of prime drinking ahead. (95 pts.)

1991 and 1985 Heitz

  • 1991 Heitz Cellar Cabernet Sauvignon - USA, California, Napa Valley
    Much oakier nose than the '85 Heitz Martha’s Vineyard, tasted side-by-side (see TN). Nose of matchstick and dark fruit. On the palate this is blocky, intense, and a touch bloody/swampy, with large-scaled dark fruit, spearmint, and fresh herbs. This was very good, but didn’t quite come together for me. (88 pts.)
  • 1985 Heitz Cellar Cabernet Sauvignon Martha’s Vineyard - USA, California, Napa Valley, Oakville
    Fantastic mineral-laced dark fruit nose. The palate shows kaleidoscopically complex, minty dark fruit, Graves-like gravelly soil flavors, berries, tobacco, soy, vitamin, and eucalyptus. Unbelievably dynamic and long, with an amazing, silky texture, superb balance, and a near-endless finish. A perfect example of this remarkable wine. WOTN. (96 pts.)

Two Ripe Vintages

  • 1992 Whitehall Lane Cabernet Sauvignon Reserve - USA, California, Napa Valley
    Heavy VA on the nose. On the palate, this is swampy, sour, flat, thick, and hot. Thoroughly nasty. If this bottle was representative, this wine has both feet in the grave.
  • 1997 Chateau Montelena Cabernet Sauvignon The Montelena Estate - USA, California, Napa Valley
    A faint whiff of brett on the nose that quickly blew off. On the palate this is concentrated and ripe yet also slightly herbal, with dark fruit flavors, smoke, minerals, and coffee/espresso that build to a medium finish wrapped in oak. This has plenty of intensity but seems to lack freshness and energy. Very good but disappointing relative to expectations. (88 pts.)
  • 1997 Shafer Cabernet Sauvignon Hillside Select - USA, California, Napa Valley, Stags Leap District
    Big, burly, and very oaky immediately upon opening, this settled down considerably with air. Super-ripe, sweet black fruit, coffee creme, and a faint whiff of VA. Large-scaled and still quite tannic. As with the '97 Montelena (see TN), this bottle didn’t live up to this wine’s stratospheric reputation. (90 pts.)

Mystery Wine

  • 1966 Château Haut-Bailly - France, Bordeaux, Graves, Pessac-Léognan
    I served this blind, and the group guesses were all over the map (one taster thought Chinon; the two closest were '85 Bordeaux). Second time I’ve had this. Much better than the previous bottle, from the same source. Fantastic Graves scorched earth and red fruits. Lively, complex, and long on the palate, with beautifully sappy fruit, fine structure, and impeccable balance. (94 pts.)

Wow, great notes on a variety of vintages!! That’s a good tasting array…

i had the 84 DCV RRT last month with a bunch of friends and we liked the wine quite a bit better than you did Steve.

Certainly there is some later picking going on to please the perceived market preference for that easily and early approachable wine. Some of these blockbuster styled wines have gotten all the press, and therefore, alot fo the money.

Big issue… MANY Napa vineyards had to be replanted in the late 90’s due to phylloxera.

Agree completely on both points. Winebid is easy pickings for great old CA cabs, and as Keith said, I’ve had nary a loser. I don’t really buy much any more, but I’d look for old Krug F1s, Heitz (Martha and regular), BV, Laurel Glen… The list goes on.

Inglenook from the 80s = [nea.gif]

I’m starting to research all this a bit and see if I can arrange a few appointments here and there, but going by the info I get on websites it doesn’t seem too easy. For example see http://www.kapcsandywines.com/visitus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - 4 people or more and $75 tasting/tour fee? Is this for real?!?

I guess I’ll go to Yosemite instead :smiley:

Guillaume - don’t be discouraged. Not all charge like Kapscandy. Opus is another expensive proposition.

Check out Verite.

I’ve indeed found a few more in the $10-35 range that seems a bit more acceptable!

Not necessarily old world but check out some wineries up in the mtn (Spring Mtn or Howell Mtn).

Wineries are appt only but:

Spring Mtn:

Pride
Sherwin Family
Smith Madrone - they also make one of CA’s best Rieslings
Guilliams
Terra Valentine
Keenan
Schweiger

Howell Mtn:

Outpost - I used to work there
Dunn
O’Shaugnessy
Lail
Lamborn - Heidi Barrett Peterson is winemaker (formerly Screaming Eagle)
Ladera

And at the bottom of Howell Mtn - Arns.

Most of these are apt and no fee tastings. Classic mtn Cabs, Petite Sirahs and Zinfandel

Haven’t tried any yet, but I’ve heard that Heitz is making good wine again and should be ageworthy.

I also like Lail J. Daniel Cuvee–very classic style cab.

Vineyard 29 cabs are “newer” in style, but I think are ageworthy.

Inglenook is one of the great old names of California wines. It was made famous by John Daniels, who made the wines there for many years and I think owned the winery. Eventually, in the late 60s I believe, the winery was sold to United Vintners (which I think later became part of Heublein) and the wines slowly starting getting worse. I have had excellent 1968 and 1973 Inglenook Cask, but nothing later.

As I understand it, the Inglenook Cask Cabernet was made from three vineyards. One of these was Napanook. That is now the grape source for Dominus. Another is the Niebaum Estate (Niebaum started Inglenook). These grapes now going into Rubicon.

I love Ridge Monte Bello and (for a great value) Santa Cruz.

If you’re on the East Coast [shipping cost-wise], then MacArthur [Bassin’s] has the 2003 Togni [WA 95] and the 2004 Togni [WA 95] on sale for $71.40 through the end of the week.

Judging from Wine-Searcher Pro, those look like pretty good prices.

What about Spring Mountain Vineyards? They made some great cabs in the 70’s and have gotten some praise for their recent wines.

I recently drank a 2002 Keenan cab–it was really tannic and took hours to open up. I think it must need another 5-10 years.