When I first saw Joe’s post I was in agreeance and was thinking how ridiculous it seemed. I immediately thought of all the times I’ve tasted in Italy and have just showed up to wineries and done quick tastings (always buying). Since most of these tastings were not scheduled, we usually caught the families while working and they would pop some bottles, pour, tell a quick description and continue working and then come back and check on us. To us this was fine because we obviously knew we were interrupting and were stopping to try their wine for the first time and had no expectations to be catered to. 90% of the tasting that we have had an appointment with the winery have been free and I have not yet run into a stipulation where you had to purchase. Some of the larger producers that encounter more of the general population I have seen small charges. One memory at a tasting with a winemaker with five others that I did not know, we spent well over an hour tasting, listening to how everything was made, even got to try some older vintages and then at the end he asked if anybody by chance wanted to purchase anything and I think only two of them bought a bottle each and I was disgusted. I could just remember thinking how disrespectful that was. With that being said I completely understand where Erica is coming from. Erica, I believe you guys should clarify that the people coming to do this “tasting” are not doing a traditional tasting. You need to market it as an intimate tasting with the winemaker and describe some of the things that you had previously stated because unfortunately I think many think of a tasting as a 20 minute experience where as you guys and many other wineries are offering a more intimate one on one experience that goes way beyond the traditional view of a tasting. Obviously, this is more attractive for us wine geeks and easily justifies the expense or requirements!!! Now you have peaked my interest in your product! Cheers!!!
I try to find creative ways to piss people off. Then pour them what they are hoping to taste, and stand back.
Jason, yes, you may. I’m not sure how it might be pertinent, but I am in the electronics engineering field.
Interesting discussion. I don’t charge but at some point I imagine I will have to, though marcus makes a good point that even when you try to cover your costs with a fee, it’s not so simple.
I don’t have any problem with the Walter Scott fee. It’s in line with the cost of the wines, it’s refundable with case purchases (not a hard threshold to get to) and it’s a great point - you’re not just paying to taste, it’s for the appointment.
I love how - in the world of wine - you might visit somewhere, taste and learn and pay nothing unless you want to engage further (buy wine). What restaurant does that? Or in this case, you do pay a fee, but it’s nominal relative to the cost of the wine itself and fairly easily refundable.
Honestly, I just visited Universal Studios and for the cost of a few Krusty Burgers, I coulda visited Walter Scott!!! Now that’s an outrage. 
I ask because there seems to be a different standard with the service industry than the rest of the jobs in the world…
Did you offer to work for your employer for free or a seriously pro rated price (tasting fee?) Or did your employer look at your past history, performance in that industry and make an educated guess that you were worth the money?
Oregon and the new world in general is far different than the rest of the world, generally speaking many of the estates you will visit abroad will be Family legacies where the land and house have been paid off for a long time, of course current taxes, costs apply per vintage but generally speaking associated costs are a lot less.
Full disclosure both Ken and Erica are friends and I work with them in my market and see how generous they are on a daily basis and honestly if you like Pinot or chard you will buy multiple bottles as they are delicious and well made.
I much more appreciate a winery saying ‘here’s our deal, buy three please’ and know what I’m getting into vs. paying a $50 fee in a normal tasting room.
I personally think that if I ask someone for their time and energy for an hour to an hour and a half they deserve more than a $20-$50 fee for their time.
How much value do you place on your time? Would one of your friends ask for you to work for them for $20-$50 on a project or is your expertise worth more than that?
I am fine with a fee or required purchase. I am very appreciative and feel fortunate to get a chance to visit these wineries.
Hi Joe,
I don’t think we’re at an impasse at all.
My only issue with your original post is that you implied bad behavior on the part of one of the very best, and most authentic, wineries in the Willamette Valley.
Your stance is not in any way incorrect, not least because it’s your time and money to do as you wish with.
But Walter Scott’s request for you to buy 3 bottles(not a case), is not incorrect either.
And, as you noted, a winery with extraordinary demand to where they could double prices (triple is a little beyond what I think any winery can pull off in a sudden change) could also close the gates and sell to the list.
It’s to Ken and Erica’s credit that they are not doing that. Please note that Walter Scott is almost entirely sold out of wines they bottled just barely long enough ago to come out of bottle shock…it’s much easier on everyone’s pocket to have a 3 bottle requirement for appointments than it is for them to double or even just increase prices by 50%.
It also makes sense that not having tasted extensively through Oregon wineries, and not having tasted Goodfellow or Walter Scott at all, the references found on the boards might pique your interest but not be compelling enough to pick up bottles without trying them.
It might be worth reaching out to the guys at Avalon wines or Vinopolis and having them put together a 6-pack of entry level Oregon wines from the producers that have your attention before committing to a visit? Many of the best Willamette Valley wineries, including Walter Scott and Goodfellow, try to offer affordable Willamette Valley bottlings that basically serve as a vinous introduction, and are produced with the same commitment and care that the vineyard designates are.
I say this because while I appreciate that both my wines and Walter Scott are well received here, but they are quite different stylistically(which I enjoy myself) and for those of us with boxes at room temp…determining whether Belle Pente, Cameron, Walter Scott, Goodfellow, or Kelley Fox wines are the one you are most attuned to is just good preparation for a trip. And QPR on the entry level wines is hard to beat. Vincent, Goodfellow, and Cameron’s WV Chardonnay are all right at $20-23 at full retail.
Last, there are a lot of good wineries in Oregon that follow the standard paradigm of tasting fee, from Saffron Fields to Adelsheim to Dobbes Family. You’ll have a great-good experience at most of them. So part of what I am saying is that I hear and understand your reasoning, and there is nothing wrong with it. But that logic will also have you miss one of the most outstanding visits in the Valley at Walter Scott.
You have so many talents…
This is exactly how I got started in Oregon wine. Took a flyer and bought Vincent and PGC off the board. Loved it… Found some misc Goodfellow and Cameron at K&L wines and I was hooked. Started buying cases and mixed cases from Liner and Elsen, Sec, Vinopolis, and Avalon wines. They all get good selections of all the favorites mentioned here. You can’t hesitate on buying on release for the popular QPR wines. They disappear fast. Cameron and Walter Scott disappear really fast. The 2016 Cameron WV pinot was gone in a few days in March. My case arrived from L&E Friday.
That lead to Walter Scott, Arterberry Maresh, J Christoper, Twill, Kelley Fox and Cristom Wines…
We are headed to Willamette Valley in a few weeks and will be tasting at Walter Scott, Vincent and Goodfellow and go deep in the rabbit hole on the terroir of the Willamette Valley. Wineries I love like Cameron are nearly impossible get into to taste so I really feel fortunate to get to taste with Marcus, Vincent and Erica.
Have two wine checks ready and still don’t think thats going to cut it
Sean
and BTW Avalon has the Walter Scott Cuvee Ruth and Cuvee Anne which are sold out directly from the winery. This thread reminded me buy some more before they are gone…
Sean
Thanks for noticing.
Erica, since you asked, I vote for charging the $50 fee and raising your prices to boot. If you are selling out, that should tell you something. That you are so busy with tasting appointments from happy-customer referrals should tell you the same thing. You are offering a great product - not just fabulous wine, but an experience and a story that engaged consumers will support!
You too, Marcus.
Dan and Chas have been an early supporter of Marcus (and many other small wineries).
http://www.wineisseriousbusiness.com/?tag=marcus-goodfellow
jbray23 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:05 am
I ask because there seems to be a different standard with the service industry than the rest of the jobs in the world…
Did you offer to work for your employer for free or a seriously pro rated price (tasting fee?) Or did your employer look at your past history, performance in that industry and make an educated guess that you were worth the money?
Oregon and the new world in general is far different than the rest of the world, generally speaking many of the estates you will visit abroad will be Family legacies where the land and house have been paid off for a long time, of course current taxes, costs apply per vintage but generally speaking associated costs are a lot less.
Full disclosure both Ken and Erica are friends and I work with them in my market and see how generous they are on a daily basis and honestly if you like Pinot or chard you will buy multiple bottles as they are delicious and well made.
I much more appreciate a winery saying ‘here’s our deal, buy three please’ and know what I’m getting into vs. paying a $50 fee in a normal tasting room.
I personally think that if I ask someone for their time and energy for an hour to an hour and a half they deserve more than a $20-$50 fee for their time.
How much value do you place on your time? Would one of your friends ask for you to work for them for $20-$50 on a project or is your expertise worth more than that?
Jason,
I understand the question you raise, but I’m not sure the analogy is precise. In the service (or retail more broadly) industries, I think that when launching a business a lot of this could be thought of as falling under brand development and marketing. There is a lot of time (and correspondingly $$) and sweat equity that goes into it that is uncompensated with the hope that it will pay off in the future. I’m not sure that you can equate that to most other employed jobs, unless you are talking about a business that one owns. If that’s the case, regardless of industry, there is no question that small business owners spend extra time and make less-favorable business deals when starting out in order to attract business (market share) that will turn into long-term customers. That is true regardless of industry and I think the adage that has been applied for success from fields as varied as medicine to construction applies in most businesses: in order of relevance, availability, affability and ability will determine success.
A lot of thoughtful commentary and perspective in this thread. Really appreciate the time and honesty in many of the responses from people who live this life. Helps bring perspective and remind us of the challenging decisions/compromises (business and life) that go into starting and running a winery. The success of those who posted is well earned.
I will give my own perspective on this as a consumer, mostly to say that the effort does pay off. I’m personally familiar with both Walter Scott and Goodfellow (haven’t yet become acquainted with Vincent but will next time I’m out to Oregon). Both make an outstanding product that fits my tastes. I learned about them from a combination of critical notices and word of mouth from places like this board and from talking to people, both in Portland area wine shops and at other wineries, when I visit once or twice a year. I’ve visited both of them once or twice (memory fails) and tasted through a number of things on those visits. For me, that makes it fun and establishes a personal connection and secured me as a customer. I will admit that I only left with a few bottles on those visits but have since purchased a fair bit more over the last 3-4 years, most from Portland area retailers as part of a couple mixed cases I buy in spring/fall for myself and a few friends. I’m not a huge buyer, but a steady one. I don’t have the space (or $$) to cellar multiple cases of any one producer, so I tend to buy from retailers where I can bundle 4-6 bottles from any one winery with a few other things. I buy less DTC purely because of those logistics…that may have to change with WS and Goodfellow in the future. A quick look suggests I have purchased in total ~5 cases combined of WS and Goodfellow over the last 3ish years and they are on my list of go-to Oregon wines. I’m sure it’s hard to figure out whether having visitors translates into sales unless it is reflected in direct sales. I’m a pretty good example of that. But I am certain that the personal touch makes a difference in buying habits and certainly has for me. There is a lot of good wine out there and having made some connection and knowing I’m not only buying good wine, but also supporting good people makes a difference. Is that level of buying what is hoped for when putting in time and effort in hosting people? Obviously I can’t answer that but I would think that long-term customers is one goal, along with capturing some on the spot business from the ‘wine tourism’ crowd, many who are going to buy while on vacation wherever they visited, but are unlikely to be long-term customers.
Now is that personal touch critical/necessary? I buy Cameron and Thomas too and have never met them. But I do think it impacts consumer decisions, particularly as new brands launch. As has been said upstream, the challenge is clearly figuring out where that sweet spot is between availability, time and revenue (with revenue from visits likely being the lowest on the list as Marcus said). No right answer and the sands shift over time with both personal and professional variables playing into those calculations. As I said previously, in my opinion some form of a tasting/appointment fee is totally reasonable and having it waived (in total or in part) with a minimum purchase is a very nice practice. I also appreciate when I’m a regular purchaser from a mailing list (every place has a different ‘minimum’ for that) that there might be some additional priority given to a visit, whether that is times offered only to those customers, waiving of fees or something else. But that can be hard to do for smaller places and I don’t think it needs to be advertised widely whereas I appreciate having tasting/appointment guidelines on the web site when there are fees/minimums requested.
Thanks again for the thoughtful replies and perspectives.
Mike
Thoughtful post Mike, and well said.
I agree across the board and would add, for myself at least, that is someone is going to travel across the country to explore my wines, I will do my best to see them, so long as it doesn’t become overwhelming. It’s the least I can do.
I think wineries should expect less people over time to be buying case(s) of $40+ wine at a time.
With the combination of infinitely more wine to choose and genx/ millenials wanting variety the old days of people having cases of wine in their cellar is slowing.
Just my opinion.
David
To be frank, I thought Jason’s attempt at an analogy was bullish!t. Oh, and I’m a corporate finance guy, as long as we’re exchanging totally irrelevant facts as part of this discussion.
But I do get the issue here - not sure what the correct approach is (or even if there is one), but for small wineries it’s a difficult decision.
And Joe, fwiw, at least in my experience, Walter Scott does make some pretty nice Chardonnay (as does Marcus). So at least IMO, definitely worth checking out, even if you don’t agree with their tasting room policy.
Why is it bullshit? If you’re a corporate finance guy and I ask for your time are you going to charge me? And if so what is your time worth to you?
Why is it worthless facts to try and bring things into perspective for people that don’t think about the issues or logistics of small wineries? I’m sorry you think it’s bullshit, clearly you have an understanding how things run…
I am just a lowly civil engineer, so for what it is worth:
We went to OR in 2016 and had previously only sampled wares from a small number of OR wineries, mainly the larger ones. From smaller wineries, we had purchased Thomas, but had only tasted one bottle. We owned some Crowley but had not actually tasted any at that point. We had about two cases of Vincent in the cellar and had enjoyed a couple of bottles. We set up appointments at a number of wineries and were never told there was a tasting fee or minimum purchase except for White Rose.
Tyson Crowley treated us like royalty and we enjoyed tastings from a couple of bottles and about ten barrel samples, luckily my wife was driving. We had previously purchased through Mr. Alberty and Tyson said we should continue to rather than than direct. I really need to order some direct now. It was all good.
We visited Vincent and I told him I did not even care if we even tasted anything, I just wanted to meet him since we enjoyed his wine. He opened a few bottles, gave us a tour, and sent us off with the remnants of a bottle. It was all good.
We tasted at White Rose and it was very impersonal. Tasting fee waived with a purchase. We purchased four bottles and have never heard from them again. Oh well.
We tasted at Antica Terra/Lillian and had set up the appointment with Maggie. She never mentioned a tasting fee of $75 each. Maggie was not at the tasting and at the end her assistant comes over and tells us we need to pay the fee. I explained we really enjoyed the wines and were purchasing a mixed case, she could sell a case of wine or we could pay the fee, but not both since a fee was not mentioned when we made the appointment. We took a case home. It was all good.
We tasted at Goodfellow. Marcus laid out about nine wines, including Matello. He spent an hour or more with us, gave us a tour, was very informative not only about the wine, but general life discussions, and everything in between. We took home a case and sat on it for a couple of years, too much wine in the cellar and too little time to drink it. Last week we opened a 2013 Durant Chardonnay and it was phenomenal, so I emailed him that night and requested a mixed six of his Chardonnay. It was all good.
I totally understand a winery’s need to charge a tasting fee or require a minimum bottle purchase as they need to make money. If it is advertised ahead of time, I have no issue with it. As an engineer, I do not require a fee to provide an estimate to prepare a site plan for a parcel, but I do not prepare schematic plans for free with the exception of a few return clients who we know will bring us work. If busses or large groups are pulling into a winery for tastings, I think the tasters should pay for the privilege of tasting as it is a service being provided to them. If someone has received a recommendation from another winery or a forum shows up at a winery, well, they should pay a fee too unless the owner decides free tastings are part of their business plan.
All of this to say, most business people will not offer their services for free. They might consider certain offerings to be marketing devices and account for it in their price price.
Uh, late to the party here… Armstrong pet nat??? Say wha’?