Diam corks?

[Oliver_McCrum]

How do we know that Diam doesn’t cause Autism?

Only in inoculated wines.

Nice one.

[GregP]

I love stelvin closures based on personal experience and i’m definitely suspicious of Diam based on the horrible performance of neocork. Maybe that is not rational considering they are different, but, as a consumer, I don’t have to be rational. Having said that, I hope Diam performs like a dream because real corks leave a lot to be desired.

I don’t think Diam is anything like neocork. I mean Diam is cork. No?

Jason

Same company IIRC . . .

Not sure where the confusion comes from. Neocork is CA based, synthetic. DIAM is French, part of G3 conglomerate in USA, natural cork product if you will, free of TCA and very slow and consistent oxygen transmission rates.

Perhaps you’re thinking of Nomacork? Since it also produces Neocork type synthetic closure, but then tries to copy DIAM with same extruded natural cork closure. Looks different enough from DIAM to my eye.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

First, a Burgundian producer told me that a fellow winemaker is unfailingly able to identify (blind tasting) wines from bottles with Diam corks. He says there is a characteristic reduction aroma (not that this is necessarily a bad thing).

Is he tasting only Burgundies? How many people there are using Diams? If the set of wines he tastes isn’t very broad, it’s possible the reduction is attributable to something other than the closures and he is just picking out the winemaking.

… another winemaker … bottles virtually his entire (large) production with screw caps. He also said that experiments show that such wines age quite well, and retain more freshness than bottles with natural corks. He nevertheless pointed out that the degree of permeability is a major factor here, and that a hermetic seal is obviously not ideal for wines meant to last – and improve – for years.

A lot has been published on this. I believe you can order your screwcaps with varying degrees of permeability.

John, I think you are moving toward it with your speculation about the reduction.

Diam 5 has a moderately more restrictive O2 transipration than natural cork.
Diam 10 has a significantly more restrictive transpiration rate.
Diam 30…I bottled one wine in this closure and it took more than a year to come out of bottle shock.

I also have a couple of side by side experiments with Diam 5, 10, and 30 in the same wine. We did this with the 2016 vintage, so I have not compared them yet.

If he’s tasting wines of a similar reductive nature at bottling, it would sense that the Diam would tend to hold onto reduction longer, and also be more prone to spiral down into more complex issues if the wine were prone to it.
But, if you don’t have those reductive properties in the wines, it’s not an issue.

[Alex_Rychlewski]

Hi,

A couple of people have taken me to task for not being more specific about the source of the comments I shared.

These come from private conversations and I don’t think it is fair to name names unless the people concerned give their go-ahead.

The first example comes from a winemaker friend in the Côte de Beaune. The person referred to who can identify wines with Diam corks by smelling them is another winemaker (a mutual friend) from the same region who is famous for his tasting abilities. I once saw him correctly identify three grand crus along with vintage at the same meal.

The second example came from a very go-ahead young winemaker in the Côte de Nuits at the offshoot of one of Burgundy’s largest négociants. He implied that he usues corks for the small amount of premier and grand cru wines he produces because that is what is expected of him - more of a commercial decision than anything else.

As for the wines tasted, all references are to Burgundy alone.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[CJ_Beazley]

What’s the oldest wine anyone here has had that was under a Diam?
I think mine is 2007 Ramey Chardonnay.

[David_Bu3ker]

Got me by one year…I have had a 2008 Ramey Chard recently that was under DIAM - it was very fine, although David Ramey himself said he would drink up based on the wine (not the closure).

[John_Morris]

Dave Ramey is a very research-oriented guy, so I’m sure he didn’t switch to Diam on a lark. Did he use Diam on the reds that far back? I’m curious.

[David_Bu3ker]

I don’t know, but he’s a pretty responsive guy.

[CJ_Beazley]

Dave Ramey is a very research-oriented guy, so I’m sure he didn’t switch to Diam on a lark. Did he use Diam on the reds that far back? I’m curious.

He uses Diam-10 on his Chardonnay and Diam-30 on his cabs and blends. I can’t find when he started. I have had (and still have) some 2005 Ramey Larkmead I’m almost positive is under natural cork-I can go cut off a capsule if I need to.

[John_Morris]

I don’t know, but he’s a pretty responsive guy.

I’ve e-mailed him.

[Jim_Anderson]

Hi,

A couple of people have taken me to task for not being more specific about the source of the comments I shared.

These come from private conversations and I don’t think it is fair to name names unless the people concerned give their go-ahead.

The first example comes from a winemaker friend in the Côte de Beaune. The person referred to who can identify wines with Diam corks by smelling them is another winemaker (a mutual friend) from the same region who is famous for his tasting abilities. I once saw him correctly identify three grand crus along with vintage at the same meal.

The second example came from a very go-ahead young winemaker in the Côte de Nuits at the offshoot of one of Burgundy’s largest négociants. He implied that he usues corks for the small amount of premier and grand cru wines he produces because that is what is expected of him - more of a commercial decision than anything else.

As for the wines tasted, all references are to Burgundy alone.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Still not buying it. Identifying vineyard and vintage is not the same thing as sitting down in front of a bunch of random, unidentified wines and telling which is Diam and which is not. Bottled 29 Pinots last year. I believe 8 are under natural cork and 21 under Diam. The idea that someone could identify the closure of all 29 blind by smelling them is beyond preposterous. I would definitely be happy to play the Amazing Randy to the Uri Geller here.

[David_Ramey]

What’s the oldest wine anyone here has had that was under a Diam?
I think mine is 2007 Ramey Chardonnay.

Nope, we went with Diam with our 2013 vintage of Chards (we use them on everything).

[John_Lockwood]

From the production side the complaints I have heard about DIAM are all about the “glue” used to hold the cork together, not the actual closures themselves, which are supposed to be quite good. I have not bottled a wine under DIAM personally, but I have done group tests where we soaked different closures in alcohol and water. In those experiments DIAM did infuse a noticeable flavor and aroma. Whether that flavor and aroma is unpleasant I suppose is a matter of taste. Cork did as well, to be clear, though not surprisingly with much higher variation. I.E. sometimes the sample was very neutral, and other times it was quite “corky” (not TCA). DIAM was constantly somewhere in the middle.

[CJ_Beazley]

What’s the oldest wine anyone here has had that was under a Diam?
I think mine is 2007 Ramey Chardonnay.

Nope, we went with Diam with our 2013 vintage of Chards (we use them on everything).

Thanks for the clarification David, what year for the reds?

[David_Ramey]

What’s the oldest wine anyone here has had that was under a Diam?
I think mine is 2007 Ramey Chardonnay.


Nope-2013.

[David_Ramey]

What’s the oldest wine anyone here has had that was under a Diam?
I think mine is 2007 Ramey Chardonnay.

Nope, 2013.

[David_Ramey]

What’s the oldest wine anyone here has had that was under a Diam?
I think mine is 2007 Ramey Chardonnay.

Nope, we went with Diam with our 2013 vintage of Chards (we use them on everything).

Thanks for the clarification David, what year for the reds?

We changed entirely that bottling season, following five years of trials. So all 2013 Chards, but 2012 Pedregal and Annum, 2014 Claret…

[David_Bu3ker]

From the production side the complaints I have heard about DIAM are all about the “glue” used to hold the cork together, not the actual closures themselves, which are supposed to be quite good. I have not bottled a wine under DIAM personally, but I have done group tests where we soaked different closures in alcohol and water. In those experiments DIAM did infuse a noticeable flavor and aroma. Whether that flavor and aroma is unpleasant I suppose is a matter of taste. Cork did as well, to be clear, though not surprisingly with much higher variation. I.E. sometimes the sample was very neutral, and other times it was quite “corky” (not TCA). DIAM was constantly somewhere in the middle.

Find Steve Edmunds and see if he can open some 2009 or 2010 Rocks & Gravel reds for you. Would love your perspective on whether you perceive anything odd about the wine potentially attributable to the closure.

[larry_schaffer]

David,

The challenge here is that without having something to ‘compare’ the DIAM closed wines to, there is no way to tell how the wine would taste/smell/evolve under other clousures. I am convinced that a well made wine will age wonderfully under natural corks. DIAMs and screw caps ASSUMING there are no issues with the individual closure on that bottle and that provenance is maintained throughout the life of the bottle.

Cheers.

[David_Bu3ker]

Larry - you keep turning things back around so that there are no answers.

While I get that exact comparison options are problematic (though I would argue that David Ramey’s Hyde Chard has such a long track record that it might be a useful benchmark), I get frustrated that you never have an answer, only redone questions.