Denis Bachelet - What am I Missing?

[alan_weinberg]

If the culprit is, as Jamie asserts, Guaiacol from over toasting of barrels, even if not all barrels were affected, I’d imagine the blending would produce bottles that were all equally dosed, as it were. Or am I wrong to assume there is that level of homogenization with this sort of compound? Do you think we’re looking at variation in bottles, or simply sensitivity of perception on the drinkers’ parts? Or some other factor, like temperature and/or time bringing out these aromas?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Christophe Roumier had an issue with his Musigny? several years ago. The barrel was overtoasted I believe. I am blurry on the vintage or details but recall this with certainty. Maybe someone else knows the details?

That was the 2001 roumier musigny which supposedly had those problems and while it may not have shown well early that wine turned out just fine.
A

nope. It was the Amoureuses, not Musigny.

[MChang]

The 17 gc vv was young, fresh, and clean; seemed to gain strength with a couple hours in glass.

[Keith_Levenberg]

Christophe Roumier had an issue with his Musigny? several years ago. The barrel was overtoasted I believe. I am blurry on the vintage or details but recall this with certainty. Maybe someone else knows the details?

That was the 2001 roumier musigny which supposedly had those problems and while it may not have shown well early that wine turned out just fine.
A

nope. It was the Amoureuses, not Musigny.

Amoureuses was a different issue around the same time, a stuck fermentation. Musigny was the one that accidentally got the high toast barrel as a result of a blunder when they commissioned a custom sized barrel for their production.

[A_Gillette]

That was the 2001 roumier musigny which supposedly had those problems and while it may not have shown well early that wine turned out just fine.
A

nope. It was the Amoureuses, not Musigny.

Amoureuses was a different issue around the same time, a stuck fermentation. Musigny was the one that accidentally got the high toast barrel as a result of a blunder when they commissioned a custom sized barrel for their production.

Yup. Alan has the wrong wine in mind. How’d the amoureuses end up?
A

[billnanson]

Bachelet had some issues with their cooper in 2009, 2010 and 2011 that no one in the trade or press likes to talk about (perhaps I will render myself persona non grata by writing this, but I don’t think so). If you drink 2008s and 2012s, by contrast, you will be delighted.

I heard that the issue was a ‘cuverie issue’ which could indeed be code for the same thing, which was “righted by their updates in recent vintages” - the quote from a friend who actually imports their wine and is still allowed to taste(!) I actually did become persona-non-grata (I assume) as Denis point blank said to me ‘so it’s you who writes that stuff’ in about 2014 after I questioned the wines of 2009-2011 (it was too early to taste the freshly bottled 12s he said) - all of which smelled strongly of cigarette ash and pyrazines to me. All my subsequent requests for visits since unanswered, a shame, but there are always more good domaines in Gevrey than you can visit in one season…

Denis Bachelet

[William_Kelley]

I just tasted chez Bachelet today and given the rather sombre theme of this thread, I wanted to observe that their 2019s are brilliant - combining the depth of the 2015s with the charm of the 2017s, which seems to be the signature of the year’s best reds. We also tried Evocelles and Charmes from bottle, and they had tightened up nicely since I tried them in barrel, showing very good cut and structure that’s promising for the long haul. I am really happy to have a few bottles of both those cuvées in my cellar!

[dcornutt]

Thanks William. This is always one of my favorites so nice to hear this.

[William_Kelley]

Thanks William. This is always one of my favorites so nice to hear this.

And the 2018 Charmes, IIRC, is only 13.2% alcohol…!

[alan_weinberg]

I am really happy to have a few bottles of both those cuvées in my cellar!

you’ve got everything in your cellar!

[Andrew_Hamilton]

In continuing with the high toast barrel conversation, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that most new oak in Burgundy for reds received high toast treatment from the cooperage? I seem to remember having this conversation roughly 5-6 years ago here on WB. I had always assumed that red burgs barrels had received lighter toast as they’re not quite so oak laden (in general) when compared to other wines. But I was told a heavy toast was the norm and while it showed prominently in youth it integrated much better with time when compared to a lighter toast barrel. IIRC it was down to harsh ‘green’ wood tannin and how a light toast didn’t fully remove green wood tannin that would leech into the wine and never fully resolve with time in bottle. So in the case of the Bachelet wines, am I to assume the problem years were down to barrels that were over-toasted past the point of ‘high toast’ that is the standard in Burgundy?

[emile_bond]

Someone on CT commented that 2009 is when that character started appearing.

I made that assessment on CellarTracker back during August 2020 prior to William’s explanation on this thread. I can only go by my own experience. I never smelled/tasted the charcoal, ashtray, etc. inflections until 2009 vintage. The 2008s and prior I have tasted are delicious and not tainted by less desirable inflections of aroma and flavor The CdN-Village 2010 is certainly marred by this character. I drank 6 bottles of the wine this year with consistent impressions. The wine is drinkable, and the rich, pure fruit underneath is delicious. However, the inflections mentioned previously taint the overall profile of wine. And the fact that this occurred at least 4 vintages in a row and never explained until recently is something I will never understand especially as the prices increased each vintage.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

I see that notes are all over the place, though, and am wondering what’s behind the variation.

What you are seeing is the tension between, on the one hand, producer and appellation reputation; and on the other, the reality in the glass. In Burgundy, I don’t think it would be controversial to say that this generally plays out in favor of the former. I don’t find fault with that, just as I don’t object to eating a lovely meal in a restaurant with a nice ambience as opposed to an objectionable one, but it as well to acknowledge that it plays a part.

The revival of this thread brought to my attention I never thanked you for responding to my question, William. Sorry about that, and thank you for the thoughts. I can certainly see how that would be a big factor, especially for reviewers, critics and those with similar influence.

[William_Kelley]

I can certainly see how that would be a big factor, especially for reviewers, critics and those with similar influence.

I think it’s just as big a factor for consumers who have a considerable financial and emotional investment in grand bottles, honestly. I remember someone pouring me a glass of flagrantly oxidized 2006 Leflaive Chevalier last year, despite my attempts to politely decline. He told me how Leflaive was his favorite winery, and how he liked old wines that are “a little bit oxidative”…

[William_Kelley]

In continuing with the high toast barrel conversation, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that most new oak in Burgundy for reds received high toast treatment from the cooperage? I seem to remember having this conversation roughly 5-6 years ago here on WB. I had always assumed that red burgs barrels had received lighter toast as they’re not quite so oak laden (in general) when compared to other wines. But I was told a heavy toast was the norm and while it showed prominently in youth it integrated much better with time when compared to a lighter toast barrel. IIRC it was down to harsh ‘green’ wood tannin and how a light toast didn’t fully remove green wood tannin that would leech into the wine and never fully resolve with time in bottle.

I would say higher toast cooperage is comparatively rare among top Burgundy producers these days. The trend has been on the one hand longer seasoning of the wood (lots of three year barrels these days), and on the other longer but lighter toasts (the idea being to degrade the wood without charring it). The sucrosity that higher toasts bring can easily be a bit too much in the riper, warmer vintages of today. Many of the top domaines have a more or less proprietary barrel program, but one could say that some, such as Leroy and Roumier, use an almost blonde toast, whereas a domaine such as DRC or Mugneret-Gibourg use something that might be generalized as “medium-long”. There is no single best barrel for any wine, it’s about adapting the barrel to the winemaking and élevage, and also perhaps to site and vintage.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

I can certainly see how that would be a big factor, especially for reviewers, critics and those with similar influence.

I think it’s just as big a factor for consumers who have a considerable financial and emotional investment in grand bottles, honestly. I remember someone pouring me a glass of flagrantly oxidized 2006 Leflaive Chevalier last year, despite my attempts to politely decline. He told me how Leflaive was his favorite winery, and how he liked old wines that are “a little bit oxidative”…

Good point, and also true in my experience. I’ve seen people vigorously defend flawed bottles they brought to dinner, insisting “that’s just the way this wine tastes when aged,” or similar excuses. It’s exacerbated by other participants being hesitant to call out a flawed wine that someone else has brought for provided. I remember being invited to a Commanderie de Bordeaux induction ceremony event once, a big one with multiple tables. The bottle of Haut Brion (don’t recall the vintage) poured at our table was terribly corked. Everyone else at the table was praising it, and there was considerable scorn directed at me - not a Commanderie member - for criticizing. So I went over to one of the other tables, asked for a small pour from their bottle, and brought it back to my table for comparison. To their credit, tones changed quite a bit after tasting what the wine should be.

I was thinking in this case of the reviewers having the public platform on which they could call the faults out, yet didn’t. But it’s also true that the consumers continue to vote with their wallets and with a more subtle influence.

[Andrew_Hamilton]

In continuing with the high toast barrel conversation, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that most new oak in Burgundy for reds received high toast treatment from the cooperage? I seem to remember having this conversation roughly 5-6 years ago here on WB. I had always assumed that red burgs barrels had received lighter toast as they’re not quite so oak laden (in general) when compared to other wines. But I was told a heavy toast was the norm and while it showed prominently in youth it integrated much better with time when compared to a lighter toast barrel. IIRC it was down to harsh ‘green’ wood tannin and how a light toast didn’t fully remove green wood tannin that would leech into the wine and never fully resolve with time in bottle.

I would say higher toast cooperage is comparatively rare among top Burgundy producers these days. The trend has been on the one hand longer seasoning of the wood (lots of three year barrels these days), and on the other longer but lighter toasts (the idea being to degrade the wood without charring it). The sucrosity that higher toasts bring can easily be a bit too much in the riper, warmer vintages of today. Many of the top domaines have a more or less proprietary barrel program, but one could say that some, such as Leroy and Roumier, use an almost blonde toast, whereas a domaine such as DRC or Mugneret-Gibourg use something that might be generalized as “medium-long”. There is no single best barrel for any wine, it’s about adapting the barrel to the winemaking and élevage, and also perhaps to site and vintage.

Thanks for this response William, I really appreciate it. I went back and searched my post history and I believe this thread is where my misunderstanding originated.

If 100% new oak is so bad . . .

I must have had a few glasses before reading that thread as it doesn’t really mesh with the myth I laid out above.

[A_Songeur]

Thanks William for these infos about oak treatment and toasting. Would be nice to have a sort of database covering more producers.

[William_Kelley]

Thanks William for these infos about oak treatment and toasting. Would be nice to have a sort of database covering more producers.

Yeah, at some point I was thinking of doing an article on coopers and their styles. But, it can be complicated: I often find Tonnellerie Rousseau, for example, quite impactful, with lots of lactones and spice; yet J-P Guyon works with 100% new Rousseau, with a proprietary toast, and it’s really not very impactful at all. So generalizing about styles can be perilous. Different coopers also seem to mark the wines more or less strongly at different stages of the élevage: I have found that e.g. Chassin is discreet early, and becomes more impactful at >12 months; whereas François Frères can deliver quite a big, toasty “prise de bois” early in élevage and really integrate at >12 months; Rémond seems to really show the most overtly oaky at 10-12 months and then integrate very fast after that (especially if you rack). I am sure winemakers will have had different experiences with those same coopers! But those are some extrapolations from what I have tasted / made in Burgundy. As I wrote a few days ago, there is no one ideal barrel for all wines (even if some barrels are obviously a lot better than others), but rather barrels that are optimized for a particular winemaking and maturation approach.

[Josh_Najjar]

It seems unfair to make broad assertions about a producer based on a sample size of one bottle.

I opened up a ‘10 Gevrey VV last month that was open, red fruited and delicious. No ash and no wall of tannin.

I am a fan. As with the producers I buy regularly, most bottles sing and a few croak. That’s Burgundy.

Even Ted Williams struck out some time.

I opened the same bottle last weekend, first time sampling it, and I was amazed how well it showed.
Simply a delicious wine, super concentrated and complex, with a sweet Gevrey earthiness.
A wine that certainly outperforms it’s appellation !
In terms of density, this would certainly put quite a few premier crus to shame.

I can also recall a trade tasting about 10 years ago at Tribeca Grill, with many of the top Burg winemakers in attendance pouring their wines… I left thinking that Denis’ wines were second only to the Liger Belair wines that day.

[Brad_England]

Thanks to this thread, we drank a 99 Bachelet Charmes on Christmas Day. My TN was simple: “Absolutely fantastic. In a perfect spot.” Thanks for the referral. I didn’t remember that two of these beauties were hiding in the cellar!