Denis Bachelet - What am I Missing?

[Jamie_Kutch]

Cigarettes or ashtray is an aroma compound that is found in new oak from toasting the barrels. The compound is Guaiacol. It is also found in smoke tainted fruit which comes from smoke via burning wood and brush.

This below from ETS Lab’s website. The first one being what you are smelling in the wine. Sounds like someone got bad barrels with heavy char or toast or toasted head. In the new world with Pinot Noir there is a producer in CA who used to make wines with this massively scared oak smell (back many years ago). Their barrel program was Heavy Toast and Toasted Heads and a LOTS of brand new oak. The wines for my smell always screamed of ashtray,

Guaiacol and 4-Methylguaiacol
Wood lignin degradation at very high temperatures (pyrolysis) results in formation of a wide range of volatile phenols including guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol. These compounds have smoky aromas, and are markers of the smoky character imparted by heavily toasted oak. Guaiacol has a char aroma, while 4-methylguaiacol has both char and spicy characters.

Furfural and 5-Methylfurfural
Furfural and 5-methylfurfural result from caramelization of cellulose and hemicellulose during barrel toasting. They possess sweet, butterscotch, light caramel, and faint almondlike aromas. They may contribute these characteristics to wines aged in oak and are also markers for the whole family of caramelization compounds.

Vanillin
The main aroma compound in natural vanilla, is also present in raw oak. The quantities of vanillin vary with oak species and seasoning. Vanillin increases with medium toast levels, but may decrease with very high toast. Vanillin is partially transformed to non-aromatic vanillyl alcohol by yeast during barrel fermentation.

Eugenol
The main aroma compound found in cloves. Present in raw oak, eugenol is reported to increase during open-air wood seasoning. Eugenol and isoeugenol possess a very similar spicy, clove-like aroma. Release into wine is reported to increase with toasting level.

[maureen_nelson]

Dare I confess to having purchased 23 bottles of the 1999 Bachelet Charmes?

[maureen_nelson]

Cigarettes or ashtray is an aroma compound that is found in new oak from toasting the barrels. The compound is Guaiacol. It is also found in smoke tainted fruit which comes from smoke via burning wood and brush.

This below from ETS Lab’s website. The first one being what you are smelling in the wine. Sounds like someone got bad barrels with heavy char or toast or toasted head. In the new world with Pinot Noir there is a producer in CA who used to make wines with this massively scared oak smell (back many years ago). Their barrel program was Heavy Toast and Toasted Heads and a LOTS of brand new oak. The wines for my smell always screamed of ashtray,

Guaiacol and 4-Methylguaiacol
Wood lignin degradation at very high temperatures (pyrolysis) results in formation of a wide range of volatile phenols including guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol. These compounds have smoky aromas, and are markers of the smoky character imparted by heavily toasted oak. Guaiacol has a char aroma, while 4-methylguaiacol has both char and spicy characters.

Furfural and 5-Methylfurfural
Furfural and 5-methylfurfural result from caramelization of cellulose and hemicellulose during barrel toasting. They possess sweet, butterscotch, light caramel, and faint almondlike aromas. They may contribute these characteristics to wines aged in oak and are also markers for the whole family of caramelization compounds.

Vanillin
The main aroma compound in natural vanilla, is also present in raw oak. The quantities of vanillin vary with oak species and seasoning. Vanillin increases with medium toast levels, but may decrease with very high toast. Vanillin is partially transformed to non-aromatic vanillyl alcohol by yeast during barrel fermentation.

Eugenol
The main aroma compound found in cloves. Present in raw oak, eugenol is reported to increase during open-air wood seasoning. Eugenol and isoeugenol possess a very similar spicy, clove-like aroma. Release into wine is reported to increase with toasting level.

This is what I have smelled in the very few Roty gevreys I have tried.

[alan_weinberg]

Dare I confess to having purchased 23 bottles of the 1999 Bachelet Charmes?

that’s why I only could find about 20 long ago. We were both chasing it. Like Roumier.

[maureen_nelson]

Dare I confess to having purchased 23 bottles of the 1999 Bachelet Charmes?

that’s why I only could find about 20 long ago. We were both chasing it. Like Roumier.

True! But I shared mine (Robert Thornton, Ray DeAngelo, Becky Wasserman, e.g.)!

And remember - it was cheap!

[dchu]

Super interesting discussion, thanks for the insights shared all around. I’m a fan of Bachelet wines - and not just because we share the same first name.

I’ve popped a couple of '11 Gevrey VVs lately, and both showed a distinct (almost overpowering) smokiness. Was always curious as to why that was the case, and now I know. Anyone try the Charmes from that year, I’ve been meaning to crack one open to try.

[Robert_Grenley]

I just opened a bottle of 2009 Gevrey-Chambertin VV, poured it into the glass, and it smells like… cigarettes? If I didn’t check CT I’d think I was going crazy. Does anyone like this tarry flavor? Where is this “pure fruit” that people speak of with Bachelet?

Bachelet had some issues with their cooper in 2009, 2010 and 2011 that no one in the trade or press likes to talk about (perhaps I will render myself persona non grata by writing this, but I don’t think so). If you drink 2008s and 2012s, by contrast, you will be delighted.

Any recent experiences with the 2010 Bachelet’s?

[William_Kelley]

Guess I’ll have to try a 2012 before I totally write the wines off!

Or any number of other vintages! It would be a pity to write them off, it’s a terrific domaine.

[billnanson]

On release I also had a significant downer on the 2009s chez Bachelet…
I haven’t tasted one for several years now, though…

[Greg_K]

I’m gonna pop one of the 17 GC vv I got recently soon

I had this a couple of months back, it’s quite pretty, and very clean.

[Charlie_Carnes]

I just opened a bottle of 2009 Gevrey-Chambertin VV, poured it into the glass, and it smells like… cigarettes? If I didn’t check CT I’d think I was going crazy. Does anyone like this tarry flavor? Where is this “pure fruit” that people speak of with Bachelet?

Hate to hear it! I opened the 2008 model last week and was so impressed. I owe a note here, which I hoe to get to today while the trop storm rains on me all day. The wine was red fruited loveliness, lively, and very Gevrey…

[Charlie_Carnes]

I’m gonna pop one of the 17 GC vv I got recently soon

I had this a couple of months back, it’s quite pretty, and very clean.

I concur… very pretty and clean, lovely!

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

I just opened a bottle of 2009 Gevrey-Chambertin VV, poured it into the glass, and it smells like… cigarettes? If I didn’t check CT I’d think I was going crazy. Does anyone like this tarry flavor? Where is this “pure fruit” that people speak of with Bachelet?

Bachelet had some issues with their cooper in 2009, 2010 and 2011 that no one in the trade or press likes to talk about (perhaps I will render myself persona non grata by writing this, but I don’t think so). If you drink 2008s and 2012s, by contrast, you will be delighted.

This discussion has me curious. I don’t have many bottles in the ‘09/’10/’11 vintages from Bachelet, and I have not tasted any of the few I do have. I see that notes are all over the place, though, and am wondering what’s behind the variation. That’s keeping in mind, of course, William’s comment about the press and critics being hesitant to mention the barrel issue.

William (or anyone else who knows) – were all Denis’s barrels impacted in those vintages, or only some? Do we know if problem barrels were used on all levels, or only certain bottlings? I notice, for instance, that there are no mentions of cigarette smell on the 2009 Bourgogne in CT notes, but there are on the '09 Gevrey VV. And for the 2011 VV, some notes mention it, and others – palates I generally trust – don’t seem to get it at all.

If the culprit is, as Jamie asserts, Guaiacol from over toasting of barrels, even if not all barrels were affected, I’d imagine the blending would produce bottles that were all equally dosed, as it were. Or am I wrong to assume there is that level of homogenization with this sort of compound? Do you think we’re looking at variation in bottles, or simply sensitivity of perception on the drinkers’ parts? Or some other factor, like temperature and/or time bringing out these aromas?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[A_So]

I’m one of those who detected significant cigarette ash flavours in the 2009 Gevrey VV (more than once I might add). However, I still detected those notes in the 2012 and 2013 versions as well. Someone on CT commented that 2009 is when that character started appearing. I also strongly disliked the 2015 Bourgogne, and that was tasted blind.

I haven’t had many pre-2009 Bachelet. The younger ones being the vintages I’ve tasted the most of may well explain my dislike of the producer versus the glowing comments from many others here.

[William_Kelley]

I see that notes are all over the place, though, and am wondering what’s behind the variation.

What you are seeing is the tension between, on the one hand, producer and appellation reputation; and on the other, the reality in the glass. In Burgundy, I don’t think it would be controversial to say that this generally plays out in favor of the former. I don’t find fault with that, just as I don’t object to eating a lovely meal in a restaurant with a nice ambience as opposed to an objectionable one, but it as well to acknowledge that it plays a part.

[William_Kelley]

However, I still detected those notes in the 2012 and 2013 versions as well.

Have those, but in storage in the UK, so sadly can’t pull a bottle here in Beaune in the interests of science. But that was not my impression from barrel / just after bottling. Since they changed coopers, it would be a surprise if it continued afterwards.

[William_Kelley]

opened the 2008 model last week and was so impressed

This is consistent with my thesis! And quite consistent with Denis’ body of work over the course of a long and illustrious career.

[Jamie_Kutch]

Bachelet had some issues with their cooper in 2009, 2010 and 2011 that no one in the trade or press likes to talk about (perhaps I will render myself persona non grata by writing this, but I don’t think so). If you drink 2008s and 2012s, by contrast, you will be delighted.

If the culprit is, as Jamie asserts, Guaiacol from over toasting of barrels, even if not all barrels were affected, I’d imagine the blending would produce bottles that were all equally dosed, as it were. Or am I wrong to assume there is that level of homogenization with this sort of compound? Do you think we’re looking at variation in bottles, or simply sensitivity of perception on the drinkers’ parts? Or some other factor, like temperature and/or time bringing out these aromas?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Christophe Roumier had an issue with his Musigny? several years ago. The barrel was overtoasted I believe. I am blurry on the vintage or details but recall this with certainty. Maybe someone else knows the details?

[A_Gillette]

Bachelet had some issues with their cooper in 2009, 2010 and 2011 that no one in the trade or press likes to talk about (perhaps I will render myself persona non grata by writing this, but I don’t think so). If you drink 2008s and 2012s, by contrast, you will be delighted.

If the culprit is, as Jamie asserts, Guaiacol from over toasting of barrels, even if not all barrels were affected, I’d imagine the blending would produce bottles that were all equally dosed, as it were. Or am I wrong to assume there is that level of homogenization with this sort of compound? Do you think we’re looking at variation in bottles, or simply sensitivity of perception on the drinkers’ parts? Or some other factor, like temperature and/or time bringing out these aromas?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Christophe Roumier had an issue with his Musigny? several years ago. The barrel was overtoasted I believe. I am blurry on the vintage or details but recall this with certainty. Maybe someone else knows the details?

That was the 2001 roumier musigny which supposedly had those problems and while it may not have shown well early that wine turned out just fine.
A

[John_Morris]

Dare I confess to having purchased 23 bottles of the 1999 Bachelet Charmes?

Can I friend you?