We’re building our first facility, to get up to perhaps 1000 cs if we should be so fortunate, though it would be nice to have some upside, with only barrel storage being the limit.
Our first test batches were run with the destemmer on an extension cord, and using a garden hose and pressure washer for clean up. We progressed in a month from food grade trash cans with carboys to T-bins feeding barrels. Lets just say that hot water would have been nice to dissolve tartar and sugar.
To be able to do <5 tons per hour, and a mix of white and red, whats the power requirement to have a suitable destemmer, must pump, and press ?
is 20A 220 V sufficient, assuming that if we go 3 phase, we’ll have to have a phase converter, and that chiller can be shut off when doing crush.
Other than providing water (cold and hot) are there any other facilities I should run now, perhaps N2, Compressed Air, vacuum line? (my background is in Semiconductor process engineering, so we live and die by the facilities…)
I can add up the requirements of specific tools, what I am not as confident of, is knowing today which tools I will eventually need in a few years, where the choice to put in additional extra capacity now would be well appreciated, to get us to up to 3k cs, or to use offsite storage as needed.
Our zoning permit is good for 10k cs, but we just won’t have the space to store that many bbls,
Based on existing space we would be about 200 bbl or ~3k cs. (1/2 reds for 2 yrs, 1/2 whites for 1)
At a point we were doing >2.5k cs, it would suggest we would be able to afford a new/larger facility, and at that point, I’d be willing to have it professionally designed and built.
No default answer… since it will mostly depend upon the equipment you buy and what mobile services you use (bottling, crossflow, etc).
At our winery, we have 110, 220V 30A 3 Phase, and 220V 30A Single Phase basically everywhere. We kinda went crazy, since we have like 14 drops of each in our 18,000 processing area. But we use them all now and then, and we don’t need to run a bunch of extension cords that are always in the way. Our press and crusher would be fine with 20A, but ironically it’s our pressure washer that needs 30A. And we need both 3 and single phase since our pumps are single phase.
We also have 220V 60A plugs at each of our external roll-up doors because that’s what our mobile bottlers need. I wish we never had to filter anything, but on occassion we’ve had to have a mobile crossflow brought to our place. That company has a transformer that they can tap off our 220V 60A plugs to power their equipment. I’m not sure what they actually need… but my guess is 440V.
One thing to consider is that if you’re going to do a lot of white wine, the larger presses need higher amps. I think our neighbor’s (Pali) press that will do 4 tons of whole cluster chardonnay needs 60A.
100A may be a problem eventually. Probably the most important things to size for the future are refrigeration and the press. It will be kind of difficult to justify replacing the skid (if you get a skid rather than smaller 1-2 tonR units to run individual tanks, which may be something you want to look at - while more complicated in that you need to hook them up to tanks in need, you’ll save a lot - I think Kreyer makes several version of these with different tonR capacities), it is not particularly easy to simply add another refrigerant compressor because of all the piping involved and how that would affect the rest of the loop, and once you buy a press, it is extremely difficult to justify replacing it until you just plain outgrow it by leaps and bounds. Stuff like pumps/tanks/etc are pretty easy - if you find you need more, they are smallish items in the scheme of things and just buy another.
Chillers are a huge energy sink, so that might be your biggest concern with only 100A.
If you can run 480 instead of 220, that will cut your amperage needs down a lot if 100 is all you have and there is no chance of getting more. I’m not sure how the need for that sort of transformer will affect overall cost…220V is generally just fine if the amps are plentiful. 3-phase will be key for the starts of some of these motors and to cut down on wear and tear to them. Depending on what is available to you, I have seen some articles in the trade rags on pretty simple phase converters you can install if PG&E can’t get you 3phase.
You may want to look at newer presses with motors that have soft starts to avoid over-drawing.
I would hold off on running air, N2, vacuum (actually, I have never seen a winery with vacuum lines - I’m not really sure what you would need them for). With such small volume, if you want to use an air pump, for example, off-the-shelf stand alone compressors that run on normal 110V should be capable (the rule of thumb is 3/4 cfm at 90 psi per gpm desired [depending on the pump type, size of transfer lines, etc] - so if you want to fill a barrel in 5 minutes, you will need a compressor that can supply 9 cfm at 90psi). Also, all that piping can be done later yourself with PVC…not as durable or pretty as copper, but can get the job done.
In general as long as you have high-voltage and 3-phase power, any sort of unexpected equipment like a bottling line or whatever can make it work. They, at least up here, are used to showing up to all sorts of places with all sorts of quirky power supplies and are generally pretty good about working out with you beforehand what you have and what they need.
As noted, the vacuum lines were more from day job thinking than any real expectation of need. In addition to wash down spigots, CDA and N2 could make sense for actuators and purging respectively.
Three phase may be between 100 m and a km away, (have to revisit the cross street’s insulators, and I suspect while could get it, it might get me, for the occasional use like a press I would expect a converter would make most sense, though the comments regarding chillers are quite apropos.
We get to a peak of 110 F here in San Martin, I have done the energy budget for the ~400 ft^2 space and its only going to need 5000 BTU peak at 120F based on insulation schedule, we plan to install 12k for transient response. On the winter side we get down to 25 or so, and its only 2000 BTU to hold that at 60F.
A chiller working into that would be a problem, but I have a 15k gallons swimming pool if I need a big heat sink. Its a bit funky, but its more efficient trying to pump heat up only 30F to ~70 water rather than 60 degrees to 100F air.
The 100A threshold is due to this being in a 1970’s residence with 100A service
I plan to bring in a separate service at the point I need it, I assume I can get >= 200 A 220 off the pole, by asking for it.
We have a wind turbine project pending, I may be able to upgrade at that time.
Depending on how big your ferments are and your desired peak temps, you may not even need to remove any heat from them. While Tbins can get surprisingly hot, probably due to their well-insulated nature, I have only rarely seen them get to the point that they actually need active cooling. In my experience, even 3-5T fermentors tend to stay out of danger zone. Until you grow to the point that the ferments are pretty large, you may not even need a way to cool them, depending on your desired temps.
How low are your nighttime lows? A very well insulated building (R30?) with some night-air may be able to keep the place reasonable for barrel storage provided all the doors and windows are also well-insulated and not opened much or at all during those 110F days. At least, for cost reasons, I might start with the primo insulation job and see if that can sustain it before moving to an active cooling solution. It sounds like you are just looking at some DX-type units with a coiled air handler? That could be a good way to go. Always smart to have great insulation rather than mondo BTU’s anyways or you just wind up cooling the neighborhood. The costs are not all that different initially, but the ongoing costs of running the cooling more add up over time.
Vaccums are useful for some lab work, but that certainly wouldn’t require anything more than a small pump and some tygon tubing.
We get down in the 50’s in Sept/Oct, I was looking at whites being fermented at 40-50.
How low are your nighttime lows? A very well insulated building (R30?) with some night-air may be able to keep the place reasonable for barrel storage provided all the doors and windows are also well-insulated and not opened much or at all during those 110F days. At least, for cost reasons, I might start with the primo insulation job and see if that can sustain it before moving to an active cooling solution. It sounds like you are just looking at some DX-type units with a coiled air handler? That could be a good way to go. Always smart to have great insulation rather than mondo BTU’s anyways or you just wind up cooling the neighborhood. The costs are not all that different initially, but the ongoing costs of running the cooling more add up over time.
Thats the plan, it’s only 2x4 studs, so I am some what limited to ~R-15 on the walls, but I can take the ceiling to R30, and use radiative blankets above that.
Vaccums are useful for some lab work, but that certainly wouldn’t require anything more than a small pump and some tygon tubing.