I know there’s some Clos Saron love on this board, but I don’t have any experience with this winery or maker. Gideon is conducting a tasting and seminar tonight in Minneapolis (Lilydale) that my wife and I are attending. To all you Clos Saron lovers out there, what should I be expecting? Just wondering.
Of course, I can always make my own judgements, but I am also interested in why some of you prefer these wines so much.
Cheers.
k.
Full disclosure up front: Gideon provides me regulatory and informal consulting assistance in making my own wines so I am in theory predisposed to liking him and his wines.
That said, I was a fan of Gideon’s wine long before I considered making my own. Gideon is easily making my favorite wines in California. He makes the types of wines that you need to go to instead of them coming to you, but in my subjective opinion his wines almost always have perfect power/weight/flavor/structure ratios. Even his robust wines have a true femininity that is awe inspiring to me.
He is what some might call a “natural” winemaker both in terms of viticulture and winemaking. He uses less so2 that most winemakers. I think the 2009 was his last vintage that he made any wines with no so2 (the pinot). Some people have found some off bottles from him but out of maybe 40 wines Ive bought from him (and dozens or hundreds more tasted) I only found one with a touch of VA. Never had any brett that I could detect. But I hand carry his wines from his cellar to mine so it could be that.
I think his best values are his cinsault (sp?) wines. They don’t have the complexities of his syrahs or Pinots but they drink amazingly well and are in my opinion almost always perfect dinner wines.
One interesting thing about Gideon’s wines is that for all his reds he uses 100% whole cluster but I never notice anything stemmy or green about his wines. If I hadn’t seen the whole clusters go in the fermenter I wouldn’t believe it.
I mostly agree with Berry, except that out of the 10 or so Clos Saron wines I’ve tasted, about half were flawed with VA to a degree that made the wines unenjoyable for me. The other half were so good that I continue to go back for more. The wines are rich and ripe without sweetness, which is exceedingly rare in CA.
Yup…would have to agree w/ David here. They’re sort of a mixed bag. I’ve had some at RR that were bretty/funky and elevated VA. Not undrinkable
or unenjoyable to me, but definitely problematic. And some have been very good. I think you’ll find the wines “interesting” (in a good sense) and
outside your normal range of experience.
Gideon is a down-to-earth friendly guy & clearly passionate about what he does. That passion counts for a lot in my book.
Let us know what you find.
Tom
Interested to read detailed notes if you are so inclined.
Have fun!
Are the bottles showing VA ones that have been cellared? Are they showing it in the current vintage? Berry- you mentioned the Pinot Noirs being particularly enjoyable, are the Rhones the ones with more prevalent VA issues/reports?
I’m new to the CS mailing list, so just trying to grab some data.
Oh man, I am horrible at taking notes. I used to be better, but I’ve become less thorough (read: lazy), and when my wife says this is also a ‘date night’ my priorities shift. We’ll see what happens…
k.
Well if not detailed noted, how about detailed impressions? Sound fair? ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
The fact that Berry likes them has me intrigued.
Agree that they are a microbially mixed bag. Nonetheless, the good ones are among the best in California.
I’ll be very interested to hear your impressions, Karring. Even if it’s not tasting notes, please loop back and tell us your general impressions and all.
The cinsaults have been my favorite as well. The syrahs are great though usually have a good bit of stank that blows off after a few hours or a day (not a minus for me). I like his white a lot as well.
I’ll give a report tomorrow, but the talk was really interesting. I feel I understand Gideon and his wines a bit more now. I wasn’t a fan of his straight syrah, but I enjoyed most of his other offerings. He certainly has a passion about natural winemaking and a perspective on building flavor that is inspiring.
k.
So what did I learn about Gideon and his wines?
It is always nice to see a winemaker invest 100% in his passion in all areas of winemaking – even if it kicks his ass sometimes. But he has his vision: produce a set amount of wine (no more), earn a modest living, let nature do her work in pre-packaging the grapes, and make an enjoyable wine with light human touch.
Berry was correct up thread in that Gideon is bent towards natural winemaking. He tries to use no stainless steel at all in his winery, preferring wood as much as possible; he uses old oak verses new; no inoculation; his wines are unfined and unfiltered; only feet stomp his grapes in whole clusters in old open oak vats; low SO2; no lab analysis; no pumping; and little to no irrigation. He seems to revel in the fact that modern banking rejects his model and the federal government is his main backer.
I was also struck by how he portrays his part as a winemaker in such passive terms. At first I thought it was a language thing (he is Israeli-French and a non-native speaker), but the number of times he mentioned events ‘just happening to me’ seemed to go a bit further. Even his entry into wine making and inheriting a winery is described as just pure chance that ‘happened’. In the end, I got the feeling he sees himself as just a farmer riding out what nature deals him. Draught happens, frost happens, brett happens…
Towards the end of his talk, he said that if the environment is good and in order, his wine will be good. Mother nature pre-packages everything it needs with the grape. But on the other hand, he also acknowledged that the environment is becoming more volatile and gave the example of bugs decimating some of his trees that had been standing for decades. I guess it begs the question how a more natural, hands-off approach to making wine coexists with a less predictable and volatile environment. But that’s another discussion…
The only time I really felt that he played his hand with his wine was in the fact he has a definite preference for lower-alcohol wines with good acid that go well with food. That’s not an uncommon preference, but he said that if the alcohol content is too high, he gets headaches and simply can’t enjoy the wine. And his cinsault blends are his attempt at making good dinner wine.
Anyhow, I know this is just commentary, but the reason I mention it is that even though Berry hasn’t experienced brett/VA in Clos Saron wines, and none of the bottles we had were affected by those issues, I could definitely see his wines being more exposed to those problems.
As for the wines, I found most of them very enjoyable. I will note that due to a miscommunication, Gideon and the distributer thought they were arriving early, but they were actually late, which meant that many of the wines did not have time to air out properly.
The Cart Blanche was a blend of Albarino and Verdejo with purchased fruit. He normally doesn’t purchase his fruit, but he gave up some leases and I think he said there was some frost damage. Anyhow, it was a very clean wine with mineral notes and some fresh green apple, and a nice tart finish. I really enjoyed it.
I liked both of the cinsault-based wines: Out of the Blue, and A Deeper Shade of Blue: The latter was my favorite. The nose was more aromatic. The fruit was a bit ‘juicier’ with acid up front leading into more graphite and dusty tannins, and a hint of pepper at the end.
The two primarily syrah bottlings, Stone Soup and Heart of Stone, were not to my liking. I found the tannins too pronounced and powerful.
I also really liked the Black Pearl blend (Syrah, Cab Sauv, Petit Verdot, and Sauv Blanc). This was possibly my favorite bottle. His site says the last grape is merlot, but he definitely said that it was Sauv Blanc at the tasting. I am not sure what is correct. Anyhow, I can’t read my scribble much on this one, but it was richer with dark fruit and had a nice acidity.
And unfortunately, my scribble on the Home Vineyard Pinot is completely unreadable. It was in the middle of the pack in terms of my preference. But I definitely think it needed more time to air out. It struck me as a bit clumsy out of the bottle, but I bought another bottle that I will try again at a later date with better decanting. I think I am going to be pleasantly surprised by it. That’s my hunch.
Well, those are my impressions of the event.
Cheers,
Karring
Thank you for taking the time to share your impressions Karring.
This sounds like a winery/winemaker worthy of support and admiration.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Karring.
Like you, I’ve found his Syrahs to have pretty hard/rugged tannins that I’m not convinced age will resolve.
Tom
Tom, I don’t want to go too OT here, but in your mind what indicates whether tannins will/will not resolve?
Well, Corey…I haven’t a clue to tell the truth. Sometimes in tannic reds, they eventually come together and show
resolved/soft/gentle tannins…sometimes they don’t and always have a hard/tannic edge until they’ve lost all the
fruit and are no longer much of a pleasure. W/ Gideon’s wines, I don’t have the experience to say for certain…just guessin’.
Tom
Thanks to all for the attention to our wines. I am happy for the fact that our wines are a bit confusing, keeping us all on our toes…
A couple of comments:
Aging. A couple of time a year, we offer open house tastings at the winery, in which we offer “mini-verticals” of all of our wines. There, you get to taste side by side all current releases with a random selection of library vintages, going all the way back to our beginning fifteen years ago. All of our wines seem to have the ability to age well, acquiring additional complexity and harmony along the way. They all are made of very low yields and are very concentrated, which is the sole most important factor of relevance. What ideally happens in successful aging is more related to the opening and coming to the surface of the inner core of the wine, rather than the “preservation” or “endurance” of the layer of youthful gushy fruit which overlays the surface of the wine. That is my own very biased experience, but these events give you all the opportunity to form your own opinion.
Tannin. I have worked in this area now for over a quarter of a century. The level of tannins we work with in this area is one of if not the highest in CA, and that says a lot… But they do melt away with time. In the context of aging, the issues are complex. Tannins (phenolics, more properly) need to be of the “right kind” or “right quality” to evolve well. Well, for the most part, since there are also examples of local wines, which initially displayed high levels of really nasty astringent bitter tannins, which proceeded to evolve beautifully over decades…
VA, Bret, etc. Unless overwhelmed by them, wine can display such issues at various stages of its lifespan, only to “outgrow” them and move on to other phases, in which it seems to be free of them. Sorry, I know how controversial this may seem to many, but this is my own experience with my own wines.
Syrah. In our area, this variety produces long aging wines, which certainly display an initial ruggedness and rusticity. It is easy to understand why they may appear underwhelming when tasted in their youth, especially when compared with Cinsault-based wines, which are extremely precautious… If you would truly like to understand them, follow them through their decades of aging. To my own taste, our syrah-based wines take about 12-18 years to start showing their true character… (as do the Pinots, for that matter). Of the two wines of ours of this variety, the Stone Soup is by far the lighter and leaner. It is a wine which can more easily be underestimated than understood, since it has little of the flattering Cali fruit to cover its bones… you will need some patience with this one. The Heart of Stone has by far more body and fruit and is easier to enjoy in its youth, but no easier to understand. If you take the time, you will have a very different experience with it when it finally decides to come around and reveal its true nature. Don’t trust my word, come taste mature (or at least more mature) examples at our tasting! (or send a friend over if you are way over there…)
You are all invited to come to our next open house on November 1 and taste some older vintages!
Great thread that prompted me to order the wines, Cinsault and Syrah.
I really appreciate the way Gideon goes about discussing his wines. He admits to his understandable affinity for his own wines, but his descriptions of them based on his experiences seem very sincere and not salesman-y. At least from what I can tell over the computer.
I have two bottles each of 09 and 10 Home PN. I haven’t had one of his PNs yet; the 09 gets a lot of bad marks for spoilage type flavors, though Gideon says those are likely to resolve. I should probably open a 10, so I can get a feel for whether I want to start investing in these and aging them.