Chezeaux v. Ponsot

WINE TALK
1

I just read a very thorough explanation, which among other things says that for some vineyards Chezeaux is, and for other vineyards is NOT, Ponsot juice, but I want to confirm the following.

As for the Clos St. Denis, in a given vintage is the Chezeaux the exact same juice AND same quality as the Ponsot? Or are the Chezeaux from lesser barrels?

2

As far as I´m concerned:
at present 4 Chezeaux-wines are made by Ponsot under the metayage-agreement.
Clos St. Denis
Griottes-Chambertin
Chambertin
Chambolle-Musigny Charmes

For the Griottes there is also a 2nd version made by Domaine René Leclerc - and in the past there has also been a 2nd Charmes made by Domaine Berthaut, but I think that ended.
The latter makes also the other Chezeaux-wines from Gevrey (village, Cazetiers, Lavaux-St.Jacques).

Now all Chezeaux-wines made by Ponsot should clearly indicate this on the label, and in addition Ponsot uses a bottle with PONSOT engraved on the bottom, and plastic corks - so no doubt here.

10-15 years ago it was much more difficult to tell who made what.
I´ve once been told that if the label read: S.N.V. du Chezeaux it was a Ponsot-wine - and if it read G.F.A. du Chezeaux it was either Leclerc (Griottes) or Berthaut (Charmes and the other Gevreys) - but I´ve never had the opportunity to taste two versions side by side.

All wines in metayage should be shared equally among the partners - so I don´t believe Ponsot chooses a better barrel for their own bottlings, and reserves a lesser one for the Chezeaux bottles - that would be offending and illegal. However I cannot prove this - and nobody ever will tell.

3

So my 2002 Chezeaux Clos Saint Denis is in fact Ponsot? But is it bottled with a plastic cork? Thanks

4

The plastic cork started only in app. 2008 …

It should definitely be made by Ponsot - and should read S.N.V. du Chezeaux on the label (however I don´t know how consequently this was indicated). Reg. Clos St-Denis I know of no other producer making the Clos St-Denis for Chezeaux - different from the Chambolle Charmes and Griottes-Chambertin.

5

All the new Ponsot Chezeauxs have the synthetic cork since 2008 as Gerhard notes this includes the Clos St Denis. All of my 2008s until the present from Chezeaux en metayage with Ponsot have the same cork as Ponsot. FWIW.

6

I’ve always wondered: why are the 4 Chezeaux-wines are made by Ponsot always much cheaper on the market than Ponsot’s bottling if indeed they are the exact same juice?

7

The mysteries of market - and good for us insiders [highfive.gif]
There ARE people buying only labels … [wink.gif]

8

I think there are plenty of people who buy the Ponsot, fully knowing it’s supposed to be the same juice as the Chezeaux, betting that if there are any hard choices to make, the Ponsot figures to benefit.

9

Thank you all, I just made a Chezeaux CsD purchase.

My only prior experience with something like this is the Lignier 2004-2005 wines. Hubert gave his son Romain and (by law later?) his American wife Kellen some vineyards. Romain was well loved in Burgundy and had been making wine for his father since 1991 at age 21. At some point Romain and/or Kellen called their winery Lucie et Auguste Lignier, after their children. In July 2004 Romain died of cancer. Hubert let Kellen, whether or not by prior agreement with Romain, bottle a portion of Hubert juice under the Lucie et Auguste label in 2004 and 2005. So, 2005 LA Lignier Clos de la Roche is identical to Hubert’s. And it was available for years for one third the price, and I bought a bunch, and being new to Burgundy drank them all. Idiot. Now it is $250 per bottle everywhere because the word has finally saturated the high end market, but still lower priced than Hubert’s bottling. The Morey St. Denis Premier Cru, which is an outstanding high end wine under the Hubert label, was, in 2005, in LA Lignier bottles, grossly underpriced at $75 in a couple of places while being $125 everywhere else until very recently. It’s also a great wine. I bought a lot of it (for me 12 is a whole lot and I bought maybe 18 in batches over a few years, including the last two bottles in the US at the $75 price, I think), drank many of them too soon but still have some.

The point? It took a long time for it to sink in to the market that LA Lignier 2004 and 2005 was Hubert juice. In the Chezeaux situation it’s further complicated. (1) If I was not confident Chezeaux CsD is Ponsot top end juice, I’m sure others are not sure as well. Plus (2) which Chezeaux are we talking about, Jean makes really light wines IMO, and (3) if you buy a Chezeaux wine without regard to vineyard, thinking you’re getting Ponsot, it might be Leclerc. These factors will keep holding the price below Ponsot for the CsD because of the uncertainty even after we are told over and over again yes it is Ponsot juice.

In the Lignier case there was no rational cause for uncertainty (yet the price stayed low for a long time), you knew Hubert was not giving his son’s family the lower end barrels, it was purely a gift of love and shortlived in intention.

It was also tragically shortlived in reality. I’m posting this at the end because it’s irrelevant to my Chezeaux point of what happened with the 2004-2005 LA Lignier wines. But if you are interested in LA Lignier wines post-2005, you need to know this. At some point after Romain’s death Hubert wanted to take back the vineyards he had given Romain and Kellen to make sure they would stay in the family, not be solely under the control of an American widow, who was very young, who had two small children to raise, with very little wine experience if any, who might let the vineyards leave the family and certainly could not fill Romain’s shoes as winemaker. So there were battles. Kellen won. She hired an Australian winemaker as a consultant which did not go over well in France, etc. etc. Whoever the winemaker is now, whatever the quality of LA Lignier wines recently, they are not made with the input of Hubert or Romain or anyone in the Lignier family except Kellen. I wish her luck, she is determined to honor the Lignier name.

Also, if you are interested in recent LA Lignier wines, the 2005 LA Lignier MSD Premier Cru was the Hubert MSDPC, but it means something different now. LA now makes a wine, I think it’s Cuvee Romain, which is LA’s high end MSDPC. LA Lignier’s current “Morey St. Denis Premier Cru” is lower end than LA’s “Cuvee Romain” which is meant to be the equivalent of Hubert’s “Premier Cru.”

I haven’t double checked these facts today and I believe them to be true and I apologize for inaccuracies. But for a while I had a huge winehunting incentive to get it right, and now I find very interesting the similarities and differences between Chezeaux v. Ponsot CsD on the one hand, and LA Lignier 2004-2005 v. Hubert Lignier 2004-2005 on the other, and to what extent trustworthy bargains can be, or for a while could be, had simply from a different label. I think the Lignier bargain window is finally closed but the Chezeaux bargain window is not, at least for those vineyards where the metayage is with Ponsot.