Cheval-Blanc oenologist: "I never saw as many over-extracted wines as I did in the 2005 vintage"

[Keith_Levenberg]

http://www.decanter.com/news/290141.html?aff=rss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If only he named names!

[Nathan_Smyth]

@Decanter

Rémi Edange, assistant manager at Domaine de Chevalier, too warned of the dangers of over-extraction.

‘When you have thick, hard skins like this, you do not want to pump over or pigeage too much because you could force out some hard tannins,’ he said.

[u]Pigeage (France)[/u]: This is one method of submerging the cap of skins and grape solids, which is kept in contact with the fermenting wine to increase extract during the cuvaison. Pigeage à pied is the process of pushing it down with the foot. The same may be achieved by pumping the fermenting wine over the cap, or by submerging it using boards laid across the top of the vat.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Keith Levenberg

http://www.decanter.com/news/290141.html?aff=rss

If only he named names!

That is what John Gilman is for. He did.

[WvanGorp]

A winemaker friend of mine, who shall remain nameless, told me he thought so many of the 05’s were over extracted that it became, for him, a vintage not to his taste.

[Ray.Tuppa_sch]

@WvanGorp

A winemaker friend of mine, who shall remain nameless, told me he thought so many of the 05’s were over extracted that it became, for him, a vintage not to his taste.

Manlin?

[k_s_h_i_n]

As I stated in Squires board, I have taste the most of the 05s and like them a lot as the top wines have perfect fruit maturity, non obtrusive tannin and great balance. I have very little knowledge in wine making but the wines are great. Even the right bank monsters do have fresh fruit. However there are some lower end modern style wines that are not meant to last as they are too oaky, disjointed with about 24 hours in half full bottle and overly alcoholic without the core fruit concentration to overcome. If the wine maker has an issue, he needs to give an example. BTW, the new releases from domaine de chavalier have great concentration and color and I don’t see how the assistant manager can state such when the style of the chateau is in line with the others.

[Rick_Gregory]

Concentration != extraction. Concentration as most people use it comes naturally from the fruit quality mostly. Extraction is done in the winery whether by more pigeage than needed or other techniques and, to me at least, implies an element of artificiality, of going for more than the grapes would naturally give.

I’m unclear on how you can say the wines are lovely and then say that many fall apart into oaky messes…

[k_s_h_i_n]

@Rick Gregory

Concentration != extraction. Concentration as most people use it comes naturally from the fruit quality mostly. Extraction is done in the winery whether by more pigeage than needed or other techniques.

I’m unclear on how you can say the wines are lovely and then say that many fall apart into oaky messes…

Rick,
If you are referring to my posting, I forgot to add ‘lower end’. Participating in zachy’s wine auction and posting.

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Rick Gregory

Concentration as most people use it comes naturally from the fruit quality mostly.

Not sure that’s true these days, at least not in Bordeaux. Low-tech spoof like saignee and high-tech spoof like reverse osmosis aren’t extraction tools, they’re concentration tools.

[mauss]

You must have faith in the truly great Bordeaux 2005 like Ausone : just give to them the proper time around 10/15 years minimum.

2009 will be even better and yes, they have thick skins, so the vinification phase will be not so easy. But now with the new equipment more and more producers use, such as the optic sort machine (see picture on my blog at Pavie), they did pour in their tanks such a quality of fruit that we will get truly great juice.

Link : http://gje.mabulle.com/index.php/2009/10/08/189848-collection-de-portraits-9-gerard-perse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And what is better than 2003, only a very few handfull properties did have some “hydric stress”.

In burgundy, as they resume the situation : 2009 ? already sold out ! Blast : it will certainly not be a question of price, just a simple quest to get some. Let’s hope the stock market will make you rich again

[Scott_Manlin]

@Ray.Tuppatsch

@WvanGorp

A winemaker friend of mine, who shall remain nameless, told me he thought so many of the 05’s were over extracted that it became, for him, a vintage not to his taste.

Manlin?

I will only be a “winemaker” and I use that term generously, when somebody actually buys my wine out of choice, not guilt or obligation… for now, I am happy with cellar bitch… we’re having an open house today at Cold Heaven (where I am making my wine), while I had nothing to do with the wines being poured, I did make the carnitas, chipotle rubbed chicken and carne asada in adobo…so there will be plenty of decent tacos to eat…

If any of you stop buy, I am happy to pull a barrel sample of my 09 667 for ya…

[Rick_Gregory]

@Keith Levenberg

@Rick Gregory

Concentration as most people use it comes naturally from the fruit quality mostly.

Not sure that’s true these days, at least not in Bordeaux. Low-tech spoof like saignee and high-tech spoof like reverse osmosis aren’t extraction tools, they’re concentration tools.

Can’t speak to reverse osmosis since I’m not knowledgeable about it. I’d not agree with saignee being a spoof technique. And yes, it’s not an extraction tool - extraction by its very meaning implies pulling something out of the grape via some technique. Of course, something like maceration is thus ‘extraction’ so it’s not a priori bad… hence the qualifier _over_extraction, which is necessarily a value judgement.

[Nathan_Smyth]

[u]Saignée[/u]: This winemaking process involved bleeding off a portion of red wine after only a short period of contact of the juice with the grape skins. Because the colour of red wine is derived from pigments in the skins, the juice is only pink not red. This process is how rosé wines are made, the only exception being Champagne where rosé may also be made by blending red and white wines, although I think the best wines are made by the saignée method. The process may also be used to improve the quality of red wines, as it increases the ratio of skins to juice in the vat, so a more deeply coloured wine may be obtained.

[Rick_Gregory]

Yep. Familiar with saignee. And while it certainly enhances concentration it seems to me it’s not inherently extracting more material from the skins…