Chateauneuf du Pape Blanc: Is Grenache Blanc Based as Good as Rousanne Based?

WINE TALK
1

Berserkers,

Time to suck out wine knowledge from your brains and palates. I’ve fallen in love with white Chateauneuf du Pape Blanc after twice tasting the amazing 2011 Clos Saint-Jean CdP Blanc. I picked up some 2012 Domaine Grand Veneur as well last year and this past weekend I happily picked up some Domaine du Grand Tinel Blanc.

However, when putting the bottle away I noticed on the label it said that the wine is a blend with mainly Grenache Blanc. Now this threw me off a bit because I just assumed that since the other two CdP Blancs from completely different makers were mostly Rousanne. I knew that Picpoul and Clairette and Bourboulenc were allowed in small amounts but had no idea that Grenache Blanc was.

Even then research shows that the CdP Blancs I have either tasted and or bought like Beaucastel and Clos Saint Jean while they do have Grenache Blanc in it, up to as much as 1/3 in the case of CSJ, they are still predominantly Rousanne.

Until now, that is, for me. The Domaine du Grand Tinel is a large 65% Grenache Blanc, 20% Clairette and 15% Bourboulenc. My question is… how is this going to compare to a CdP Blanc that is more predominantly Rousanne? There’s not a drop of it in the Domaine du Grand Tinel.

The thing I liked about the previous CdP Blancs was that they had a very creamy entry and flavor and great mouthfeel. I attributed this to the Rousanne. How is this going to compare? Should I trade them back in for some more expensive Beaucastel and pony up for the wines I really should have gotten? Or are these two bottles a good deal? What say you?

2

First I love rhones, but they are really hit or miss. I find grenache blanc to be more neutral. I find I like some of the high flying marsanne, roussane to give it some verve. I think really old vine grenache blanc has some more concentrated flavors tho.

3

You might want to try some of other Rhone whites, like still St Perays, or Condrieus, to see if those are also interesting for you. Sometimes when we had Rhone panel tastings, we’d lead off with a few of the whites.

I tried some when I was younger, but its an acquired taste, and clearly I didn’t work hard enough at it.

Although fat viognier wines remain appealing to me, even if seldom drunk.

4

I say never take back something you have never tasted because someone else says to. Unless the someone else is threatening your life.

You don’t know. So open the wines and find out. Then you’ll have personal experience, rather than a bunch of opinions from other people.

I think that creamy mouthfeel has more to do with the wine making than the grapes. Although the flavor profiles of the grapes are different, both grapes can be flabby or crisp, depending on when picked, the weather, and the wine making.

The thing about the Tinel is that Philippe Cambie is their consultant. I’ve had their reds, not their white. And I find them Cambie wines, i.e. hot. My guess is that this is going to be like those.

That said, and again, I haven’t had that wine so I don’t know, GB often tends to make a nice, but kind of soft wine. I’ve had a fair bit from around Spain and it’s usually drinkable, rarely profound.

5

Tran, the difference will be the varietal characteristics and overall ageability of the wines. Roussanne will have more weight/mouthfeel than GB. I’m not sure if GB undergoes less malo either, but you could see more green apple malic character. Roussanne will/should last significantly longer in the cellar and take on more character too. As for Grenache Blanc, it’s highly underrated and I’m a big fan. You can also find them for a greater value than Roussanne.

Check out some California Central Coast GB: Santa Barbara County (Tercero) and Paso Robles if you can find them. Tablas Creek Cotes de Tablas may be available up there - the 2013 is really lovely with texture and freshness. There are some Languedoc Roussillion GBs out there too that’s very affordable. Texture and mouthfeel are variable depending on where it’s grown, I’ve found that the CA CC keeps freshness and acidity while having more weight.

6

The GB wines are worth a try.

Rousanne can achieve greatness. Beaucastel VV is truly special, and worth cellaring. I tend to appreciate wines with a significant dose of the grape in the blend.

Grenache Blanc, for me, typically achieves goodness. CdP wines based largely off this grape tend to be a lot less baroque, and more about freshness.

I agree with Taylor that Grenache Blanc from the Central Coast is worth a look.

7

Tran,

1st: as far as I´m concerned there are no restictions to use any white (and red) varieties in the blend in any %, as long as they are among the legal 14 (or 22 if you count all variations) grape varieties.
(so one can also produce a 100% Bourboulenc CdP if desired)
It also depends simply on what is already planted in the vineyards - if you don´t want to have a lot of replanted young vines.

Different varieties have different qualities: Grenache blanc is high in alcohol, but low in acidity and with a high risk of oxidation. This results in broader full bodied wines often better for early consumption. Roussanne has higher acidity, but is difficult to grow and vinify, with inconsistant yields. Clairette is easier to grow, but when harvested it tends to oxidize very fast, and has also low acidity. Bourboulenc ripens very late (which is risky), is quite neutral in flavour but has good acidity.
So in many cases the blend of different varieties is the best way to minimize some risks and get the best results possible.
It is also important how old the vines are, if they are planted in the apropriate soils, if the yields are restricted - and how good the wine-makers are in handling the difficulties of the used grapes. So it isn´t only the question of the varieties used in the blend, but many other factors.

The best is to taste different producers´ white wines - and decide afterwards what you like, and what you don´t like.
For me personally the crucial point is acidity! If the wine is too low in acidity it simply is too boring for me and my palate (educated through many Austrian wines with excellent acidity, something I´m easily missing in many Southern Rhones.
So if the grapes are harvested quite late they are certainly ripe, full-bodied and intense, but (too) low in acidity for me.

8

Thanks very much for the info guys. Your posts were all very helpul. Here’s what my final decision is and what I based it on which should tell everyone where my mindset is after 4 years of being a wino and hanging around on the board.

Still very unsure, I decided to also research the wine on CellarTracker and see what other wine aficionados thought of the wine. Based on not only the slightly lower scores but also the marked difference in enthusiasm in the notes compared to those posted for the Clos Saint-Jean which I really, really like, the Domaine Grand Veneur Vielle Vignes which I have and the Beaucastels which I have tasted and are of course fantastic… I decided to return the wines and exchange them for something else.

Now hear me out on this. I didn’t approach this as a newb going “Look, numbers are lower, this stuff must be crap, end of story.” It’s a combination of my own previous experience, doubts in my mind about the blend appealing to my own palate (strong enough for me to have started the thread in the first place), the influence of CellarTracker, and everyone’s generous thoughts on this thread.

Further, I have checked the inventory on the LCBO website and made sure there’s still plenty of stock left so that if I get returner’s remorse after now having gone through buyer’s remorse and want them back again, there’s still ample opportunity to do so.

Lastly, I will be going to the SAQ in Montreal for Easter weekend and if you search on their website for white Rhone wines, well then you know that it’s a CdP Blanc and Hermitage smorgasborg for me. :slight_smile: When I picked up the Grand Tinel, to be honest I was strongly influenced by the fact that CdP Blancs rarely come in to Ontario. But once I get to Montreal, I can literally and figuratively afford to be more selective.

The SAQ also has a 2010 Clos Saint Jean available and I know from research that it is an equal thirds each blend of GB, Clairette and Rousanne. So this is strongly influencing me as well to find a CdP Blanc with less GB influence and more of the others. Hedging my bets as it were.

Who knows? It may yet turn out that I get the Grand Tinel again at a later date and enjoy it. That’s the great thing about this hobby, you never stop learning and enjoying. Thanks again for all your posts everyone.

9

I am not a big fan of pure grenache blanc for all of the reasons mentioned (neutral, not for long aging, high alcohol), but there is a good one from Priorat you might like, it is one of my favorites: Scala Dei Brgueres.

10

Others with as much or more Roussanne - and the same or less Grenache Blanc - as Clos St. Jean include:

  • Vieux Donjon
  • Dom. de la Solitude Cuvée Barberini
  • La Gardine
  • Chateau Sixtine
  • Roger Sabon “Renaissance”
  • La Nerthe (both cuvées)
  • Dom. de Marcoux
  • Grand Veneur
  • Chateau Fortia
  • Les Cailloux
  • Dom. Paul Autard

Happy hunting!

11

An interesting discussion indeed!

I don’t think you’ll find the wines ‘the same’ as Grenache Blanc does not take on as much of the waxy, viscous character that Roussanne is known for.

That said, I do believe that Grenache Blanc wines CAN age well, and do age well. Though you won’t find as many of them elsewhere, here along the Central Coast, we’ve been bottling them since Tablas Creek was able to have the TTB okay the variety for labeling nearly 15 years ago.

It’s difficult to over-generalize the characteristics of the grape. Others have side that it is low acid and higher in alcohol; I’d beg to differ, especially from the vineyards here in the Santa Ynez Valley. It tends to throw a nice size crop so is more immune to sharp temperature spikes during harvest compared to other grapes. AND it tends to be harvested earlier than Roussanne and Marsanne, at least in our neck of the woods, and therefore acids tend to be pretty good Examples? The Grenache Blanc grapes that I brought in last harvest were harvested at about 23.5 brix, pH of 3.25 and titratable acids of about 6 grams IIRC. And please note that 2014 was an abnormal year for acids - pH’s were consistent with the past, but because of the heat experienced during harvest, total acids were much lower than normal.

Don’t get me wrong - I LOVE Roussanne as well, and not only do a straight Roussanne but a Roussanne blend ta boot. The color and texture are mesmerizing, BUT it does tend to lack the acidity that other white rhone varieties possess, including Grenache Blanc (depending upon site, of course). The biggest challenge with Roussanne, IMHO, is to find sites where it can be picked ripe enough but still having good natural acidity, and not too high in potential alcohol. To me, this is a variety that shines when consumed at cellar temp or a cooler room temp - the texture is just so wonderful that I don’t want to ‘squash’ it by serving it cold . . . yet it shows its alcohol easily at this temperature. Balance is key . . .

Just my $.02 on the topic . . .

Cheers

12

Thanks for the recs, guys. SAQ definitely has La Nerthe, Vieux Donjon and Grand Veneur in stock so I’ll check these out.

13

I too really dig Condrieu. Plus they have the potential to age. A simple, yet aged, Guigal Condrieu totally blew me away recently.

14

That always seems like the challenge with Rhone white (less so Grenache Blanc, maybe), both in California and in the Rhone. I feel like they are often either overly bitter and lacking fruit, or they have ripe fruit but taste hot. The ones that thread the needle are quite excellent (and I think Tercero is a great example of pretty consistently finding that balance).

The other challenge, particularly with the Rhone versions, is when do you drink them. They seem to migrate unpredictably between phases of their life, and when you catch a mature one at the right time, it’s magic, but often you feel like it’s become oxidized, and yet then people will say they sometimes reemerge from what seems like an oxidized phase later on to hit their prime. Very confusing and hard to judge, at least for someone who only dabbles in it.

15

Savoie can produce some very interesting, very fresh Rousanne.

16

…disguised as Bergeron.

17

My current favorite white is Tablas Creek Rousanne. There’s a lot of it in the Esprit Blanc as well. The 2012 is delicious, and I assume the 2013 is as well. I think you have to be a club member to get the Rousanne, but not the Esprit.

18

Hey Guys,

Just a quick update, if you look at my recent TNs on wines at Actinolite I in fact did manage to have a California Grenache Blanc as was recommended above in the thread. It was from Baker & Brain and it was fantastic. Bottled under screwcap and retained a delightful amount of fizziness in it which really added to the pleasure of it.

I in fact do have some Clos Saint Jean and La Nerthe – which was one of the recommendations above – since I posted this thread initially and will be acquiring some Beaucastel and Tardieu-Laurent. I actually somewhat regret turning in the Grand Tinel now but there is more CdP Blanc to get from SAQ and LCBO so no reason to cry. Thanks again for the advice.