Even in the US there are hundreds of small producers who don’t get covered by any of the pro reviewers. Review services are not meant to be comprehensive. Some choose not to submit wines, but even one reviewer dedicated to a single region only has so many hours in the year. I don’t see why Champagne would be any different.
I’m very confused by this post. You sent me a PM Donald*. I responded. I didn’t reference it on this thread. Nor did I reveal any information from that conversation. You are now accusing me of bad faith? Just weird.
*the conversation wasn’t terribly interesting.
Thank you Donald! That’s quite an interesting list, and even has a name I hadn’t heard before. I’ll have to source a couple of bottles.
But this is a list of new and up and coming producers. That is very interesting in its own right, but that’s very much not what you claimed to have. In the above post you made it clear that these producers have the chance to be very good or great in time. But the claim was about producers of equal quality to Collin, Bouchard, Egly et al right now. That’s clearly not what you have provided (by your admission).
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When they achieve post chateau rapid price escalation, then you will know they are equivalent. But not until then will they be considered as good.
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That’s a really cynical view and I don’t think it’s at all correct. There are plenty of us who were drinking Collin, Egly, Bouchard and others long before the price escalation.
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Thanks, Marc! I absolutely agree with you, but I also agree with Donald that we can go a lot further—even if, if we are just scratching the surface at TWA, I would love to know what the other major Anglophone publications are doing (permaculture, perhaps? or even agroforestry).
Champagne comes with a lot of challenges for a reviewer, as the distances are big, there’s a lot of detail to master and above all write up (blends of cépage and vintages, disgorgement dates, dosage, etc), it’s hard to taste as many wines in a day as one can with still wines (tasting sparkling wine is quite fatiguing), and the rhythm of releases and disgorgements varies a lot from producer to producer. Keeping up with new tasting notes on new releases of classic-styled Brut NV cuvées that at least in principle are supposed to be more similar than different every year is also quite, well, iterative… But I’m very proud of the work we’ve done so far, with the initial aspiration to look a bit further afield than other major publications, many of whom are highly dependent on US importer portfolio tastings, and to go a bit deeper into context, viticulture - as I try to do in Burgundy.
But now is the time to go further. That’s one reason why we just hired Yohan Castaing, who is going to take over covering a lot of the bigger houses, which will mean I have more time to devote to finding the new and emerging growers and separating the interesting from the less interesting amid Champagne’s current efflorescence of small grower-bottlers. We will also attempt to, at last, do justice to the Aube, which really has been the big gap in our coverage thus far, and which is very much in the spirit of what I have tried to do in the Mâconnais and Côte Chalonnaise in Burgundy. So even if, having taken over Bordeaux, I have a bit more on my plate (and with a young family, too), we have taken some steps to make my work load a bit more coherent and, rather than simply treading water or still less retrenching, hopefully take things forward considerably in 2023.
Certainly, the interest is there, as in the last few years Champagne has emerged as one of the most-read regions on our site. So I think it makes sense to invest more time, energy, and resources there, as it really is one of France’s more dynamic wine regions, and there is just so much to get into.
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I don’t think it was a mistake, Donald. It’s important to carry the conversation further; both for the producers, and to keep us reviewers up to the mark. You and I may not always agree, but it’s certainly great to disturb critics’ complacency by refreshing the discourse (I’m happy to see that I’ve already reviewed three of the new producers you cite, and have an rdv in the diary for at least one of the others).
Clearly some things get lost in translation (a cantankerous German vs a NYC lawyer was always going to be interesting), but having shared bottles with some of the people contributing to this thread, I venture it’s a very worthwhile group and I hope we can all get back to discussing Champagne and its intricacies, without being sidetracked by acrimony.
Btw, your posts have more impact than you realize: an importer was asking me about Truchetet only today. You are on your way to becoming a “controversial figure”!
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I am actually from Scotland but have lived in Germany for more than thirty years. My problem is I don’t really speak english with anyone and it is not my intention to come across as cantekerous just I am just not up to speed with modern day spoken english and american english baffles me and at times it seems I misunderstand.
I think William is on the right track with champagne, and I got him wrong in the beginning, I think his understanding of the wine making process is a definite boon in a critic . When I started with grower champagne, I thought if we got twenty or thirty producers that would be perfect, the biggest problem, there is in grower champagne no quantity, and unlike Burgundy or Bordeaux producers do not release together. Normally for instance Marie Courtin releases in January, February, this year she feels the champagnes need longer, they will be released in October/November, for us this is difficult, how does a critic deal with this.
I totally agree, the Champagne region is massive, and this is the greatest challenge. Aube is the most exciting region but also a disaster as it is very difficult to navigate and compared to Burgundy where one can bunch producers together or everything is within half an hour driving distance Aube or the Champagne is difficult.
Here as in most forums the emphasis is placed on producers like Ulysse Collin, Prevost and Cedric Bouchard, ths is just one side of the champagne. There are numerous fractions with completely different view points on how champagne is made. Last year for me the biggest influencer was Ruppert-Leroy, firmly in the natural wine corner, they were mentored by Overnoy, the champagnes are decisive. It took us really by surprise,when Emanuel Brochet saidm they were his favourite producers.
The same with the cooperative in Chavost, Laherte pointed us towards them and I think he has strongly influenced them, no sulphur champagnes but totally convincing, for me very similiar in style to Pataille’s white wines, no fruit, just minerality. And if you want a name that is really hot off the press. Simon Rion, forget Egly’s Vrigny, try his champagnes, you will be really surprised. Or Petit Clergeot, this guy is either crazy or a genius.
The thing with grower champagne, as these new young names emerge, one has to go with them, perhaps they will be the next Ulysse Collin or not, but if you do not support them now otherwise later one has no chance.
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My problem is, I am not really in awe of Ulysse Collin and I am not looking for substitutes, this may have to do with my dealings with him. There is a saying in the Champagne about him, he does what he does because it brings him success, not because he belives what he does.
I personally think George Remy is the bigger talent. Also Vincey, they have top holding in the CDB
Ledru has strongly influenced me with her assertion that wood does not in any way belong in Champagne. Savart probably is for me the most interesting producer and I personally would place him above Ulysse Colin but I would understand if you disagreed.
It is my believe the style of champagnes influenced by Selosse, Prevost and Ulysse Collin are sort of going out of fashion. This maybe due to the fact that they are very difficult to get and have a quasi unicorn status.
I think the future belongs to producers like Ruppert-Leroy, Salima & Alain Cordeuil, , Laherte Freres, Elise Dechannes and Leclapart, whose current releases I find better than Selosses. For me personally the biggest discovery last yeat was Philippe Lancelot, a friend of Leclapart and Brochet. His champagnes are in the natural wine corner but are challenging but brilliant.
Natural wine is a strange term and does not really convey what is happening. The natural wine movement is probably the avant garde in the champagne region today is what Selosse and his acolytes were in the past two decades to the Champagne region.
My hope is that William Kelley, if he reviews these producers approachs them with an open mind.
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finally, a refreshing take on things. ruppert leroy (among many others) are for sure deserving more recognition. i just drank my last bottle from the original release of the 11-12-13 solera and it had gained immense complexity with some years in the cellar; a truly spectacular nose. i also find it quite funny that among the aube producers that forumites and influencers beast over, b. gautherot is rarely (or perhaps never) in the mix. prices remain very reasonable (relative to some mentioned up thread) and the wines continue to improve. go try a bottle of sobre and tell me it does not give any cuvee of selosse (younger or elder) a run for its money.
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Not true with me. I do my best to buy and share with the guys both R-L and V et S. I’ve got immense respect for B Gautherot and his wines. So, find peace in that another voice is here.
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I like the wines. I think they need some age to show well, especially the BDNs. The BDB and blend are more accessible earlier but still benefit from at least a few years
I’m puzzled by the comments both you and Greg have made to Donald’s posts. Yes, his style is a bit aggressive but I find Donald’s observations to be quite helpful to me and trust that he will continue to post here. Perhaps you feel differently, as is your right.
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I think the primary issue was the sense of “I know of producers that stand up to these unicorns because I’m closer to and know champagne better than you, but I won’t use my knowledge to better this board as others do because I don’t want to share” (my obvious rephrasing)
I’m personally quite glad examples have been offered, and I’ve bought a 6 pack of various cuvées/vintages from Guillame Sergent today which I’m excited to try. I will obviously report in with my tasting notes
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That’s not the same as saying they are good enough to support the crazy pricing. There are lots of people right now drinking the next producer to be leveraged into unicorn status. We do not know which one it will be until the escalations begin.
I didn’t pick these particular wines because they have “unicorn status”. Plenty of unicorns I don’t personally think are very good.
Now you’re just changing the subject.
Let’s put it a different way. Since Mr Pennet was badgered into ponying up a list, how about offering up some producers you are drinking now, prior to their inclement stardom of price and perceived quality? As in where you saw producers like UC, EO and Bouchard prior to their noteriety.
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Mr. Pennet wasn’t badgered into ponying up a list - he claimed he had one.
8000kg/hectare is 3.66 tons per acre. Hardly a small set…
b.gautherot is the reason I would never buy Selosse. Always glad to drink Selosse but even the Blanc d’argile gives Selosse a run for his money, just a shame they are so limited. I think also we will see that Coessens now that he is making champagnes fromthe site where Guillaume Selosse bought the grapes will offer the same quality if not better at a fraction of the price G. Selosse sold his champagne for.
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