Champagne price increases

WINE TALK
62

I don’t do a blind tasting but every year I do a tasting of what I consider the best releases of the year plus big champagnes like Egly’s blanc de Noirs etc. The last two years a champagne (the previous year 3 champagnes) for under 70€ my or french prices were the equal of the big guns. If we did the tasting blind the dynamic might have been completely different.

A few years ago, I would have literally s*** myself if we lost a producer like Ulysse Collin, it happened two years ago and to be honest it didn’t matter, 5-6 replacements, perhaps not the same but just as interesting.

Similairly Selosse was the holy grail, no one came near but now there are replacements.

The biggest prolem is the Blanc de Noirs from Egly, for me his best champagne by miles and one of the most unique grower champagnes, this is the one where there is no substitute. The prices are now ridiculous, our long term customers are no longer buying and to be honest from a business perspective ,if we lose Egly, it does not really matter, from an emotional level sad…

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63

I’m really curious, who makes wines of equal interest and equal quality to Selosse and Collin at 75 Euro?

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I recommend these champagnes to my customers, they believe me/trust me and buy and buy again and again and that is what counts.

Sadly nothing is for free in this world and going on your posts, you would not believe me anyway.

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65

Yeah, pay up, Greg!!

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66

You will, I hope, allow me some measure of cynicism here. As a consumer, I would be thrilled if there were cheap alternatives to Collin, Bouchard, Egly, Selosse and Prevost that were of equal quality. I have no personal investment in these producers - if they become too expensive, I will (sadly) stop buying them. Similarly, if any of them stop making wine I want to drink or drastically changes styles, I would also stop buying them. The world changes, and we must adapt (or mortgage the house). But there aren’t cheap substitutes for these producers. Like red Burgundy, the best stuff has been discovered and isn’t readily replaceable. I can’t just move on to the next Mugnier or Rousseau - there are meaningful drop offs.

I would also add, the above sounds like marketing materials that purport to let the average consumer discover secrets hitherto only known to insiders. But we have access to the same champagnes and I know the producers you work with - what would I be paying for? I also find your dismissive attitude odd - I am not looking to believe you, but to try the wines you claim are this good! I would LOVE to find these alternatives! But I suspect the reason you’re reluctant to share your list is because you have a vested interest in claiming you have these great options at the same level as the top producers, but the actual list would just generate some raised eyebrows (and maybe some snickers). It’s all well and good to claim you have some well of mystical champagne knowledge, but at some point there needs to be some proof in the pudding.

You’re not the only person who travels to Champagne or drinks a lot of it. I do agree with you on one thing - very little is free in this world, as we have discovered with Champagne prices!

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67

I sell and specialise in grower producers, if I get it wrong customers don’t buy, it is not a hobby for me. The biggest problem with grower producers is the size of the allocations, they just get smaller and smaller, one has to keep ones cards close to ones chest when one finds new producers. I am in the Champagne every week and not once a year on a nice holiday trip. Proof in the pudding as long as my customers are satisfied with my recommendations all is well. It is just I have a SM streak and like coming here to get beaten up every now and again.

The grower champagne scene cannot be compared with Burgundy, it is extremely embryonic and very few producers have really solid track records, there is lots of potential and we will be much cleverer in ten years as to who makes it and who does not.

I would concede the only producer where there is no real alternative to Cedric Bouchard, these are highly individual champagnes with their petit mousse and Bouchards fanaticism.

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68

Ha… I’m not quite ready to give up what I think might be a satisfying replacement for Fallon Ozanne, either.

My low-budget Dom, though, is Ployez-Jacquemart Extra Quality Brut.

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69

Heard a lot of people say that about Ployez, but never had an “ah ha” with it. Any specific disgorgement dates people can point to?

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70

Not sure about one particular disgorgement over another, but the wine definitely improves with cellar time*. Everyone’s favorite Berserker put that in his note, as well :upside_down_face:

*I do think that about most newly released NVs, but the info towards the bottom of the link might suggest why it might make sense to lay it down more than others

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Donald, I hope you are not surprised that I find your answer of “what do you know, American tourist - I’m in the business!” less than persuasive. Also, the list of champagne producers you claim to work with is on your website, so how can you refuse to reveal their names here in order to keep new producers “close to ones chest”? That doesn’t make sense.

I suppose I’ll just have to keep taking my holidays to Champagne and visiting growers and leave this a mystery (though I’m pretty sure I know the answer).

Happy drinking! :cheers:

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72

It is not my intention to persuade anybody. What I find amusing in the context of grower champagne is all these consumers obsessed with Bouchard, Collins, Selosse and Prevost, and with the recent price increases either being forced to dig really deep into their wallets for something in the past that was quite affordable or getting nothing and incapable of believing other producers are capable of making anything which is quality wise at a similiar level.

One of the interesting things about selling wines or in my case champagne are the statistics. Up until 2020 we sold Ulysse Collin and then they were lost. However the customers who bought Ulysse Collin still buy champagne and it tends to fit into one profile of producer type. Also when a new customer comes along and aks for Ulysse Collin and we recommend x or y, and they buy, they usually rebuy.
I am not saying the champagnes are the same as UC, but they are in the gist or if not better.

With one producer in particular who does not want to be reviewed by any critic and has small quantities, we have seen the demand increase to the extent that their is a waiting list, we have also seen the prices increase and more interestingly the customers accept the prices even though there is no points to validate this for the clientele, who require such validation.

Also, the list of champagne producers you claim to work with is on your website,

I love this. Most of the information you seek is on my website for free or on the newsletter etc etc but perhaps my website is just a figment of your imagination or vice versa.

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73

The only information any of us have been asking for is the list of producers you think are better than Collin and Egly at cheaper prices.

I’m genuinely curious to see the list.

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75

WHO ARE THESE PRODUCERS??? I’m dying to know! And who is incapable of believing? Not me, not Greg. We are asking, practically BEGGING, you to suggest some producers you have found to be “quality wise at a similar level.” This is a reasonable question in response to your implying everyone is foolish for chasing Collin, Prevost etc. when similar, cheaper alternatives exist. But you don’t seem to want to share that information, only repeat that you feel everyone is both label-obsessed and closed minded.

There is ample evidence that this community does believe and follow such suggestions. William Kelly has kindly suggested a few up and coming producers over the years that many of us have immediately gone out to try, some of which have been so good as to quickly become hard to source themselves. Many people have recently sought out La Rogerie, for instance. We looked for Filaine when WK suggested, and many of use fell in love. And not just WK or other critics. Russell Faulker routinely suggests producers to seek out, and many of us have put those on the list to try. Regular champagne drinkers in the community mention and recommend new discoveries all the time, and many of the rest of us seek those out. These people have earned the respect of this community by making concrete recommendations and sharing real experiences, not making vague sniggering hints.

So we absolutely 100% believe there are other producers out there, and have demonstrated our belief by buying. You are the recalcitrant one here. You are the one refusing to be a helpful part of the community. You have repeatedly refused, despite being asked, to mention the producers you consider in this category, while all the while adopting an incredibly patronizing attitude. You have insisted these producers exist and then given a combination of excuses about why you won’t share them, suggesting that you have to keep them a secret for the sake of your customers or that you won’t tell us because we won’t believe anyway. You are not conversing in good faith, as I see it.

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76

Last week we drank R19 Bouchard HL and Feneuil Puits 2017 on consecutive evenings, both unique wines, the Feneuil thrilled me in ways the Bouchard didn’t, would I say its ‘better’?

I find it hard to think about wines of this level like that…

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Why are you posting if you’re not interested in sharing recommendations like the rest of the people in the thread? This post/statement quoted is just so off-putting. Like a toddler shouting “I know something you don’t know! Na na na na boo boo!” The behavior is unhelpful.

Do you really think sharing producer recommendations on this forum is going to negatively affect your business or decrease your allocations? Selling wine is about relationships and, as you say, you’re in Champagne every week. I’m sure your producers would be thrilled if they learned you promoted them here as alternatives to the heavy hitters.

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They’re completely different wines. At that point you may as well argue that you can’t differentiate between Cristal and Rayas.

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You are right and I should not have gotten involved in this discussion,.

On the otherside I shared a hell a lot of information on another forum and it seems now it was a mistake.

I also find it quite amusng that I have to justify my credentials.

But lets start at the beginning. Before Covid in 2020 there was a general sense of optimism amongst grower producers. There was a feeling that prices could be pushed up as consumers in the likes of NY or Asia are prepared to pay more. Secondly importers mainly in Italy see the pricing in France as a real pest, they have massive mark ups yet italian consumers see the prices the champagnes are being sold for in France and ask why such high prices. A number of producers increased before the beginning of Corona, most notably Larmendier-Bernier and then with the lockdown the import market fell away and many producers realised how important the home market was and refrained from price increases. Larmandier-Bernier burned a lot of bridges with hs price increase.

Then there is the Willaim Kelley factor, I got off to a bad start with him and I have to be careful here.
Wiliam Kelley is a controversial figure amongst growers, there are those that think it is good what he is doing and there are those who do not. A lot of producers seen especially the developments with Ulysse Collin, I am not saying William Kelley is too blame but I think like a lot of french producers especially champagne producers, they do not understand the power of points. Can one stop the secondary market, I don’t think so. Oliver Collin thinks he can. I have now subscribed to the Wine advocate and to be honest William Kelley is just scratching the surface. I imagine with all of his commitments, especially covering Burgundy and Bordeaux that it is a time issue also the nature in how champagne is released.

And then La Rogerie a really intersting project, (we sell them). William Kelley gave the one champagne 93 points, I think this is a bit high, but in consideration of the financial backgroung the holdings they have and their friendship to Selosse, one can probably expect great things. At the moment the champagne from the sites they have are not being held long enough on the lees, and secondly they have not found their style yet. Same for their operation in the Alsace, sort of copying Deiss but suoerficially.

La Borderie in Aube is an interesting producer, a bit over hyped, the champagnes show potential and if they do things right I think we will see good things in the future.

And then the big names. Domaine Vincey, they have arrived on the scene with a furious beginning, champagnes are already highly allocated and the prices are not cheap, but the ulysse Collin type of consumers are buyng these.

Then probably the best new comer producer. George Remy, without the help of any tester he has achieved cult status in the last three years. In terms of his holdings, in bouzy and Mont Tauxieres he has the sites.

Antoine Chevalier, the guy who worked a bit at Ganevat and is influenced by Pascal Doquet, rather then make lieux-dit champagnes he made one the Carkonnia from all his plots and now he has released a second Tecta Silva which is far better tha the Carkonnia. At the moment we have his second and third releases. I think as he gains in expereince, we will see great things

Clement et Fils, Ulysse Collin’s nieghbour, a completely different style of champagne, probably more terroir true than Collin’s, very intellectual style that needs a lot of time to be undersood. At the moment with him it is all about potential but I thing we can expect great things.

Guillaume Sergent, the best kept secret in the Champagne. Social media shy, publicity shy, really good prices, the champagnes need a few years aging for the wood ot be emulated. Servagnat his friend, not at the same level but it will be interesting to see where he goes.

Guy Mea, a difficult one, an old house that under achieved, the entry level champagnes are not that interesting but when one goes up to the crus, a different story. Again just at the beginning but I feel we can expect good things with this producer.

I hope that satisfies you.

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80

I may be right, but I never said you shouldn’t have gotten involved. I said you should have participated in good faith.

No one has asked you to justify your credentials - I doubt anyone cares about your credentials in the slightest - we have just asked you to support your assertions with concrete details of which producers you’re talking about. You seem to have finally done so. It’s just a shame you had to make such a spectacle of yourself before behaving like a helpful member of this community.

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81

You will, I hope, allow me some measure of cynicism here. As a consumer, I would be thrilled if there were cheap alternatives to Collin, Bouchard, Egly, Selosse and Prevost that were of equal quality. I have no personal investment in these producers - if they become too expensive, I will (sadly) stop buying them. Similarly, if any of them stop making wine I want to drink or drastically changes styles, I would also stop buying them. The world changes, and we must adapt (or mortgage the house). But there aren’t cheap substitutes for these producers. Like red Burgundy, the best stuff has been discovered and isn’t readily replaceable. I can’t just move on to the next Mugnier or Rousseau - there are meaningful drop offs.

I would also add, the above sounds like marketing materials that purport to let the average consumer discover secrets hitherto only known to insiders. But we have access to the same champagnes and I know the producers you work with - what would I be paying for? I also find your dismissive attitude odd - I am not looking to believe you, but to try the wines you claim are this good! I would LOVE to find these alternatives! But I suspect the reason you’re reluctant to share your list is because you have a vested interest in claiming you have these great options at the same level as the top producers, but the actual list would just generate some raised eyebrows (and maybe some snickers). It’s all well and good to claim you have some well of mystical champagne knowledge, but at some point there needs to be some proof in the pudding.

You’re not the only person who travels to Champagne or drinks a lot of it. I do agree with you on one thing - very little is free in this world, as we have discovered with Champagne prices!

As we say in Germany, the music sets the tone, I particularly like this.

It’s all well and good to claim you have some well of mystical champagne knowledge, but at some point there needs to be some proof in the pudding.*

I don’t converse with people like this. and it is the reason i am hesitant of posting such information. I wrote to Greg K privately and in good faith and was surprised at the response. As I say the music sets the tone.

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82

It is strange that Pouillon does not get much love. Probably one of the most burgundian of the producers,sometimes one wonders if the wood will be integrated but the new Blanchiens is a powerhouse of a champagne.

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