Can a wine be "slightly" corked?

[Anton_D]

My wife was a little bit pregnant once.

What part of that pregnancy was so little?

The early part.

[Anton_D]

Yes for all of the reasons I stated above. If you open two bottles and they taste differently and you don’t know why, and it’s because one has TCA, it’s still corked just because you can’t discern WHY the two bottles taste differently.

So, if you don’t taste a difference, can it still be ‘corked?’

Yes. You just have a shitty palate because we deal in reality, not false perceptions. Or at least I try to.

So, then, what you really need is a guide-palate so other people can tell you your perceptions!

“This wine seems fine, but it may, in fact, be corked. I will ask my guide-palate to actually render my impressions.”

There are levels of effect and perception.

ETS Labs says analytical sensitivity and accuracy only allow a minimum reportable quantity of 0.5 ng/L for TCA detection. So, is a wine with less than that still corked? For your definition, all wine is corked to some ‘extent.’ Reality sucks.

[John_Morris]

…
https://www.etslabs.com/library/22
…

Thanks for the article. That is very useful. If I read it correctly it affects all wines in a similar fashion – but different people may have different levels of sensitivity. That is certainly consistent with my experience. But I am curious about John’s observation above that suggests it might affect different wines differently (presumably holding constant for the sensitivity of individual tasters). Does anyone have more information on that dynamic?

That article only deals with the sensitivity issue. And there’s a wide range of thresholds. I know someone who was tested and found he could detect it as one sixth the average level.

The article doesn’t address TCA’s impact on other smells and tastes. Grapes differ in their chemical flavor constituents, and some may be more affected by TCA than others.

Examples from other contexts:

• When you light a match in a bathroom, the sulfur/matchstick smell doesn’t react with anything. It just makes it impossible to smell other aromas.

• Unperfumed detergents contain chemicals to suppress the inherent aromas of the cleaning agents that are masked in the perfumed versions.

[mattccheung]

Yes, happened to a bottle I brought to dinner actually. Asked the certified som to taste as well to be sure and she agreed. Just slightly corked. Ended up getting a replacement bottle from the retailer.

[John_Morris]

given the fact that it’s naturally occurring that corks aren’t the sole source of TCA and there is a fairly consistent perceptible range for humans, i’m curious what the counter-argument (that it is binary) could possibly be?

If you find the smell repugnant, I can see how it might seem binary. But that’s really an answer to the question, “Is it drinkable?” not the question of whether there are degrees of corkiness.

I guess it’s a bit like cilantro, which some people can’t tolerate in any amount. If you’re OK with cilantro, you are more content to speak in amounts.

[Ron_Slye]

If I read it correctly it affects all wines in a similar fashion – but different people may have different levels of sensitivity.

given this sentence, i don’t think that’s right:

all haloanisoles have similar odors, but their sensory impacts in wine vary with the specific compound and wine characteristics.

Yes, good point. So that sounds like it might affect different wines differently. Anyone know which wines are more affected? Are different grapes more susceptible to being affected – or are different flavors affected regardless of grape? In other words, does it affect Cabernet more than Pinot? Red more than white? Earth flavors more than fruit?

I do think that a wine that does not present to me as TCA may still be affected. As someone else noted, sometimes a wine just tastes muted or otherwise off. That could be TCA at a level that does not clearly present itself as musty or cardboard. My sense is I am moderately sensitive – so I have had wines that I did not detect it, but others did, and the wine came across as something less than I am used to with previous tastes of it.

[lleichtman]

I got into an argument (at a Passover Seder, where else!) about whether a wine can be slightly or partially corked. One side of the argument is that it either is or is not and that there is no suck thing as levels of corkiness. The other side is that TCA is a chemical and it’s all about concentration, so at certain low levels there might be a slight although not completely fatal contamination. Any thoughts?

For me, once it’s corked, it’s corked. I don’t like the smell of TCA so any amount gets me.

[Anton_D]

given the fact that it’s naturally occurring that corks aren’t the sole source of TCA and there is a fairly consistent perceptible range for humans, i’m curious what the counter-argument (that it is binary) could possibly be?

If you find the smell repugnant, I can see how it might seem binary. But that’s really an answer to the question, “Is it drinkable?” not the question of whether there are degrees of corkiness.

I guess it’s a bit like cilantro, which some people can’t tolerate in any amount. If you’re OK with cilantro, you are more content to speak in amounts.

Many people mistake a threshold detection curve for a binary data set.

[Gerhard_P]

I got into an argument (at a Passover Seder, where else!) about whether a wine can be slightly or partially corked. One side of the argument is that it either is or is not and that there is no suck thing as levels of corkiness. The other side is that TCA is a chemical and it’s all about concentration, so at certain low levels there might be a slight although not completely fatal contamination. Any thoughts?

Sure a wine can be “slightly” corked, meaning the level of TCA is quite low … it´s depending on your sensibility for TCA if you detect it or not, and of course on the concentration in the wine.
Sometimes the level is that low that I don´t smell or taste TCA but I know “something is not right” because I simply know the wine … and it´s “different”.
On the next day the TCA is clearly there.

On last Saturday I had a bottle of 1969 red Burgundy - opened at 4 pm, smelling and tasting old and tired but otherwise ok. I had positive hopes.
At half past 10 pm the wine has blossomed into a very fine mature Burgundy, very enjoyable, sweet on the palate and really complex and interesting, but with a tiny bitterness only detectable in the very last finish … I knew there was something wrong, but only for a few seconds over an hour I got the impression of very light TCA. Retasting at 1 am after midnight the last drops showed the TCA a bit more clearly …
but all enjoyed the wine including yours truly … it was just a tiny negativ hint … but once I´ve recognized it I couldn´t forget about it.

Sometimes I wish to be less sensitive …

[lleichtman]

(This is quite helpful when returning a bottle. It’s almost always more spoiled by the time you bring it back to the store.)

Yep. And the funny thing is, sometimes the guy in the store just doesn’t notice it. I took one back last week. He asked what was wrong. I said it was corked. He said it was supposed to be - you could tell the screw-capped wines by the ridges.

So I explained that the cork was bad. He asked how I could tell. I said I smelled and tasted the wine. “Oh,” he said. “You can tell if a cork is bad by the way the wine tastes?”

I explained it to him and told him to pour some out into a dixie cup. He did and couldn’t see what I was pointing out, but the entire area smelled like corked wine. He gave me an exchange bottle anyway.

But to answer Jay’s question - I think the answer is both yes and no.

In an absolute sense, the wine is corked or is isn’t. It’s like you’re dead or you’re alive. But then there are degrees of living - on life support, in extreme pain, etc. And I think wine is like that too - you can sometimes tell that a wine is corked the moment the cork comes out of the bottle and the room reeks, or you sometimes have to taste it, smell it, and let it sit for a minute and re-check to see if your assessment was right. Partly due to perception, partly due to other factors, and partly due to the concentration of TCA.

No wonder Jay got into the argument at a seder!

Seems like the clerk may need some actual training on wine.

[Anton_D]

The old quantum/matter of degree debate will never be solved.

I am just going to go drink a product that is somewhere south of 15% poison and relax.

[Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r]

If you don’t know you have cancer until it’s stage 4, do you actually have cancer? Sounds like a dumb philosophical POV when applied to reality.

Trying to live in absolutes is so freaking silly.

And using cancer as an analogy to the extent of which a wine is corked is

[K_John_Joseph]

So, then, what you really need is a guide-palate so other people can tell you your perceptions!

“This wine seems fine, but it may, in fact, be corked. I will ask my guide-palate to actually render my impressions.”

There are levels of effect and perception.

ETS Labs says analytical sensitivity and accuracy only allow a minimum reportable quantity of 0.5 ng/L for TCA detection. So, is a wine with less than that still corked? For your definition, all wine is corked to some ‘extent.’ Reality sucks.

Some of your argument is fair. I should temper my position with the caveat that a wine is corked if the prevalence of TCA affects any perceptible aspect of the wine. For instance a true-clean bottle adjacent to a bottle with low level TCA. If you don’t know it’s corked, but can tell they’re not identical in taste and smell, is the bottle with TCA corked or not? The prevalence of TCA has affected the wine.

But just because you can’t identify the source of distortion, or even enjoy the distortion, doesn’t mean it isn’t distorted, and that’s a corked bottle of wine. It is untrue.

[K_John_Joseph]

If you don’t know you have cancer until it’s stage 4, do you actually have cancer? Sounds like a dumb philosophical POV when applied to reality.

Trying to live in absolutes is so freaking silly.

And using cancer as an analogy to the extent of which a wine is corked is

Oh give me a break. It was a simple hypothetical to show how irrational the thesis is. The idea of perception is reality is almost as laughable as an adult’s use of emojis. It’s not about absolutes as we have all had wines that were more corked than others. But any perceptible level of distortion caused by TCA is a corked wine and it won’t stop being a corked wine. The concept is no different than “is it a crime.” There is a statute that says something is a crime. There are bad crimes and lesser crimes and things we don’t personally perceive as crimes, but they’re crimes nonetheless.

Speaking of absolutes, if you perceive that a wine is “slightly” corked, do you sit tight and drink it, or do you pour it down the drain, take it back, or open something else? Or do you save those reactions only for the “very” corked wines?

[Anton_D]

So, then, what you really need is a guide-palate so other people can tell you your perceptions!

“This wine seems fine, but it may, in fact, be corked. I will ask my guide-palate to actually render my impressions.”

There are levels of effect and perception.

ETS Labs says analytical sensitivity and accuracy only allow a minimum reportable quantity of 0.5 ng/L for TCA detection. So, is a wine with less than that still corked? For your definition, all wine is corked to some ‘extent.’ Reality sucks.

Some of your argument is fair. I should temper my position with the caveat that a wine is corked if the prevalence of TCA affects any perceptible aspect of the wine. For instance a true-clean bottle adjacent to a bottle with low level TCA. If you don’t know it’s corked, but can tell they’re not identical in taste and smell, is the bottle with TCA corked or not? The prevalence of TCA has affected the wine.

But just because you can’t identify the source of distortion, or even enjoy the distortion, doesn’t mean it isn’t distorted, and that’s a corked bottle of wine. It is untrue.

We have reached an accord, mon ami!

I think I have the emoji’s in the proper order…

[GregT]

There are plenty of electronic and chemical tests to determine the presence of TCA. Here’s just one example of many such:

http://www.gerstel.com/en/GSW11-TCA-in-Wine.htm

The point is that as John said - there is not only the absolute measure of TCA, but also the other compounds and things that affect one’s perception. And when you look at the numbers, the various methods - gas chromatography, etc., detect TCA at higher or lower amounts. Humans can smell it down to very small quantities.

ETS laboratories in St. Helena explains it:
Haloanisoles are ranked among the most powerful odor compounds, with odor thresholds in the low part per-trillion range. All haloanisoles have similar odors, but their sensory impacts in wine vary with the specific compound and wine characteristics.

Reported TCA thresholds in wine are typically in the range of 2 ng/L for detecting a noticeable difference and 6 ng/L for true recognition. TCA levels below the 2 ng/L difference threshold can still impact a wine, usually described as “muted” aromas and flavors.

TBA is virtually as powerful as TCA, while TeCA is approximately three times less potent. PCA is unlikely to reach its odor threshold of 4,000 ng/L in wine, but is still a useful indicator of origins of contamination.

[/i]

So clearly something can be “slightly” corked and not only that, it can be corked so slightly that it can’t be detected by humans.

[Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r]

If you don’t know you have cancer until it’s stage 4, do you actually have cancer? Sounds like a dumb philosophical POV when applied to reality.

Trying to live in absolutes is so freaking silly.

And using cancer as an analogy to the extent of which a wine is corked is

Oh give me a break. It was a simple hypothetical to show how irrational the thesis is. The idea of perception is reality is almost as laughable as an adult’s use of emojis. It’s not about absolutes as we have all had wines that were more corked than others. But any perceptible level of distortion caused by TCA is a corked wine and it won’t stop being a corked wine. The concept is no different than “is it a crime.” There is a statute that says something is a crime. There are bad crimes and lesser crimes and things we don’t personally perceive as crimes, but they’re crimes nonetheless.

Speaking of absolutes, if you perceive that a wine is “slightly” corked, do you sit tight and drink it, or do you pour it down the drain, take it back, or open something else? Or do you save those reactions only for the “very” corked wines?

I already said my piece on this. I don’t enjoy corked wine, even slightly corked, but if other’s want to drink it I won’t stop them.

I guess if you get a mild cold, you still lie in bed for 3 days even if you only feel a little off? Makes sense. Just like when the TV is on, we only turn it to the one volume setting, even though for some it may be too loud and others too quiet. After all the TV volume is ON so everyone should perceive it as such just fine.

[Andrew_Morris]

But here’s my take. TCA affects the wine. If you cannot tell that it is TCA that affects the wine, okay, you can’t perceive it. But the wine is affected. You may have a different take away about the wine (it’s muted, good earth and leather, slight funk I’m digging) but it’s not what the wine would be without the TCA. If the wine isn’t identical in both situations, then corked is corked. It can be badly corked or lightly corked or corked but you don’t know it because you can’t identify it, but corked is corked.

I agree. From my experience, wines at or near threshold show reduced desirable traits. Fruit is particularly decreased if a wine is partially corked. Those who can’t perceive the corked can still perceive the less fruit.

[K_John_Joseph]

I already said my piece on this. I don’t enjoy corked wine, even slightly corked, but if other’s want to drink it I won’t stop them.

I guess if you get a mild cold, you still lie in bed for 3 days even if you only feel a little off? Makes sense. Just like when the TV is on, we only turn it to the one volume setting, even though for some it may be too loud and others too quiet. After all the TV volume is ON so everyone should perceive it as such just fine.

With a mild cold there is a still an absolute: I have a cold. There is a virus in my body that is affecting me, whether a lot or a little, it is still affecting me from my norm. What you’re addressing in your hypothetical set is a series of responses to a perception. I would not begin to instruct folks on how to respond to a corked wine if they couldn’t perceive it or didn’t think it was bad. I know plenty of people who think wine is better on day 3-5, though I think it is noticeably worse on almost every occasion. If you like oxidized wine, drink up.

TCA is measurable, and if there is any TCA in amounts capable of affecting any perception of the wine, like taste and smell, the wine is corked. Some might be more corked than others, but corked is corked. You can drink it, you can ignore it, you can enjoy it, but the wine is untrue. It is changed. Most likely, it is not what was intended. It is not what it would be if TCA was not present. You may not be able to tell, but it is not identical to an uncorked bottle.

I think the more apt hypothetical is this: The TV in my house is on, but the cable box is off. The TV emits a frequency I can hear, letting me know it’s on. My mother cannot hear the frequency. Is the TV on? Is the TV “slightly” on? There is an absolute measurable that is perceptible to some that is affirmatively altering perceptions about the TV. My mom can bear the fact that it is on because she can’t hear the frequency. It bothers me. I won’t tell her she has to turn off the TV, but when I’m there, I turn off the TV. The frequency may change so she can hear it and be bothered too, but the TV remains on at either frequency.

edited to address typo

[Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r]

I disagree that your TV hypothetical is more apt. In your example no one can consume the TV content even should they want or choose to.

The TV Volume analogy is far more apt, IMO. Low volumes some can hear, some with less sensitive hearing cannot. Is the TV on? Yes. Can the TV content be consumed? Yes. Will some be able to enjoy the television at that volume, though you may not? Yes.

The world ain’t black and white John. Stop living in absolutes.