Can a wine be "slightly" corked?

[Ron_Slye]

Yes, Jay, there are degrees. You can measure TCA, and people have detection thresholds, like any other smell or taste.

But corkiness is not just a matter of how much TCA you can smell or taste. TCA also interacts with other aroma and flavor compounds and can interfere or even block our perception of them.

That explains why sometimes a wine that does not have the characteristic TCA smell of wet cardboard/mushroom can seem strangely muted (it may have just enough TCA to block other flavors), or why a wine with some TCA aroma can have lots of flavor (the flavors aren’t blocked by TCA). It all depends not only on the amount of TCA but what kind of wine it is and whether its flavors and smells are susceptible to being interfered with by TCA.

This is interesting. Are there wines or grapes that are particularly susceptible to TCA? I had not realized that it might affect some wines or grapes more than others.

[Wes_Barton]

Yes and no. There are degrees of corkiness, but for me I can’t drink a wine that smells, tastes corked. So while there are different levels of corked, the decision for me is binary

I think that’s the crux of the argument. Some of us can’t tolerate drinking a wine where we detect the slightest amount, which others can perceive it up to a certain level and still enjoy a wine. I see that at sit down tastings all the time. Add in our great range of individual sensitivity and how with time the corkiness will push through more and more peoples’ thresholds, the term “slightly corked” seems most apt. It’s a figurative term with a clear meaning. (If someone gets anal about it, ask them to justify to term “corked”.)

[Pasquale_De_Marco]

given the fact that it’s naturally occurring that corks aren’t the sole source of TCA and there is a fairly consistent perceptible range for humans, i’m curious what the counter-argument (that it is binary) could possibly be?

Imagine a glass of wine has 1 oz of poison that causes 50% of humans die if they consume it and the other 50% experience different degrees of illness.
I think we’d say the wine is poisoned not slightly poisoned.

Imagine another glass has only ½ oz of the same poison and only 25% die with the rest getting ill.
Again, I think the wine is poisoned.

[ybarselah]

given the fact that it’s naturally occurring that corks aren’t the sole source of TCA and there is a fairly consistent perceptible range for humans, i’m curious what the counter-argument (that it is binary) could possibly be?

Imagine a glass of wine has 1 oz of poison that causes 50% of humans die if they consume it and the other 50% experience different degrees of illness.
I think we’d say the wine is poisoned not slightly poisoned.

Imagine another glass has only ½ oz of the same poison and only 25% die with the rest getting ill.
Again, I think the wine is poisoned.

haha! well, we don’t have to imagine totally insane analogies, because we know what this is and how it affects people. and that there is a level that cannot be perceived by anyone. see this for a good example:

https://www.etslabs.com/library/22

there are wines you’ve had that have been “corked” but that didn’t register as corked to you, but may to someone else. that’s not the same as poison, that’s like a funky steak or an ammoniated cheese. so, we can get philosophical here if we like; a wine can contain these chemicals, but so low that no one could perceive them - are they still “corked?”

sola dosis facit venenum

[Ron_Slye]

given the fact that it’s naturally occurring that corks aren’t the sole source of TCA and there is a fairly consistent perceptible range for humans, i’m curious what the counter-argument (that it is binary) could possibly be?

Imagine a glass of wine has 1 oz of poison that causes 50% of humans die if they consume it and the other 50% experience different degrees of illness.
I think we’d say the wine is poisoned not slightly poisoned.

Imagine another glass has only ½ oz of the same poison and only 25% die with the rest getting ill.
Again, I think the wine is poisoned.

haha! well, we don’t have to imagine totally insane analogies, because we know what this is and how it affects people. and that there is a level that cannot be perceived by anyone. see this for a good example:

https://www.etslabs.com/library/22

there are wines you’ve had that have been “corked” but that didn’t register as corked to you, but may to someone else. that’s not the same as poison, that’s like a funky steak or an ammoniated cheese.

Thanks for the article. That is very useful. If I read it correctly it affects all wines in a similar fashion – but different people may have different levels of sensitivity. That is certainly consistent with my experience. But I am curious about John’s observation above that suggests it might affect different wines differently (presumably holding constant for the sensitivity of individual tasters). Does anyone have more information on that dynamic?

[K_John_Joseph]

This was a major story once in Laube’s history. He called a Chat. Montelena corked at a tasting and not reviewable. Laube claimed to have extreme sensitivity to TCA. No one else at the event could pick up the taint. I believe it was <50 Ppb.

The story is an interesting read in Laube’s history with all reactions it got from the different parties.

Laube killed Pillar Rock and BV and was right according to lab results on both occasions. Here’s the BV one where Laube said all the BV samples were highly corked…BV contests…Lab proves Laube right…BV says “well, not highly corked…”

BV at center of "corked" controversy

Here’s Laube’s take on Pillar Rock. Note most folks threshold is about 3 or 4 parts per trillion.

Pillar Rock Battles TCA-Tainted Wine | Wine Spectator

And Montelena

Montelena joins the list of tainted wineries / Calistoga producer takes steps...

After battling Laube with a “you decide” road show campaign, I understand Montelena was forced to address lab results that did show that all of the samples Laube had tasted did have low levels of TCA which suggested a pervasive issue that Montelena then rectified.

[Anton_D]

given the fact that it’s naturally occurring that corks aren’t the sole source of TCA and there is a fairly consistent perceptible range for humans, i’m curious what the counter-argument (that it is binary) could possibly be?

Imagine a glass of wine has 1 oz of poison that causes 50% of humans die if they consume it and the other 50% experience different degrees of illness.
I think we’d say the wine is poisoned not slightly poisoned.

Imagine another glass has only ½ oz of the same poison and only 25% die with the rest getting ill.
Again, I think the wine is poisoned.

So, “corked” is a quantum term for you.

For me, there can be matters of degree.

Alcohol is a poison, yet wine is not.

[ybarselah]

If I read it correctly it affects all wines in a similar fashion – but different people may have different levels of sensitivity.

given this sentence, i don’t think that’s right:

all haloanisoles have similar odors, but their sensory impacts in wine vary with the specific compound and wine characteristics.

[Pasquale_De_Marco]

given the fact that it’s naturally occurring that corks aren’t the sole source of TCA and there is a fairly consistent perceptible range for humans, i’m curious what the counter-argument (that it is binary) could possibly be?

Imagine a glass of wine has 1 oz of poison that causes 50% of humans die if they consume it and the other 50% experience different degrees of illness.
I think we’d say the wine is poisoned not slightly poisoned.

Imagine another glass has only ½ oz of the same poison and only 25% die with the rest getting ill.
Again, I think the wine is poisoned.

haha! well, we don’t have to imagine totally insane analogies, because we know what this is and how it affects people. and that there is a level that cannot be perceived by anyone. see this for a good example:

https://www.etslabs.com/library/22

there are wines you’ve had that have been “corked” but that didn’t register as corked to you, but may to someone else. that’s not the same as poison, that’s like a funky steak or an ammoniated cheese. so, we can get philosophical here if we like; a wine can contain these chemicals, but so low that no one could perceive them - are they still “corked?”

sola dosis facit venenum

Imagine someone intentionally gave you a glass of wine with 1/2 oz of the poison above but you happened to be one of those few unaffected.
Wouldn’t you say they tried to poison you?

[K_John_Joseph]

If I read it correctly it affects all wines in a similar fashion – but different people may have different levels of sensitivity.

given this sentence, i don’t think that’s right:

all haloanisoles have similar odors, but their sensory impacts in wine vary with the specific compound and wine characteristics.

But here’s my take. TCA affects the wine. If you cannot tell that it is TCA that affects the wine, okay, you can’t perceive it. But the wine is affected. You may have a different take away about the wine (it’s muted, good earth and leather, slight funk I’m digging) but it’s not what the wine would be without the TCA. If the wine isn’t identical in both situations, then corked is corked. It can be badly corked or lightly corked or corked but you don’t know it because you can’t identify it, but corked is corked.

[Anton_D]

Imagine a glass of wine has 1 oz of poison that causes 50% of humans die if they consume it and the other 50% experience different degrees of illness.
I think we’d say the wine is poisoned not slightly poisoned.

Imagine another glass has only ½ oz of the same poison and only 25% die with the rest getting ill.
Again, I think the wine is poisoned.

haha! well, we don’t have to imagine totally insane analogies, because we know what this is and how it affects people. and that there is a level that cannot be perceived by anyone. see this for a good example:

https://www.etslabs.com/library/22

there are wines you’ve had that have been “corked” but that didn’t register as corked to you, but may to someone else. that’s not the same as poison, that’s like a funky steak or an ammoniated cheese. so, we can get philosophical here if we like; a wine can contain these chemicals, but so low that no one could perceive them - are they still “corked?”

sola dosis facit venenum

Imagine intentionally someone gave you a glass of wine with 1/2 oz of the poison above but you happened to be one of those few unaffected.
Wouldn’t you say they tried to poison you?

Imagine someone intentionally put sulfur, a poison, onto grapes…is that person trying to poison you?

Are there degrees of “saltiness,” etc?

[Anton_D]

If I read it correctly it affects all wines in a similar fashion – but different people may have different levels of sensitivity.

given this sentence, i don’t think that’s right:

all haloanisoles have similar odors, but their sensory impacts in wine vary with the specific compound and wine characteristics.

But here’s my take. TCA affects the wine. If you cannot tell that it is TCA that affects the wine, okay, you can’t perceive it. But the wine is affected. You may have a different take away about the wine (it’s muted, good earth and leather, slight funk I’m digging) but it’s not what the wine would be without the TCA. If the wine isn’t identical in both situations, then corked is corked. It can be badly corked or lightly corked or corked but you don’t know it because you can’t identify it, but corked is corked.

Is it ‘corked’ if it is beneath your threshold of perception?

[Neal.Mollen]

Absolutely there are degrees

[ybarselah]

But here’s my take. TCA affects the wine. If you cannot tell that it is TCA that affects the wine, okay, you can’t perceive it. But the wine is affected. You may have a different take away about the wine (it’s muted, good earth and leather, slight funk I’m digging) but it’s not what the wine would be without the TCA. If the wine isn’t identical in both situations, then corked is corked. It can be badly corked or lightly corked or corked but you don’t know it because you can’t identify it, but corked is corked.

you’re espousing a philosophical POV now; Can something exist without being perceived by consciousness?

[K_John_Joseph]

But here’s my take. TCA affects the wine. If you cannot tell that it is TCA that affects the wine, okay, you can’t perceive it. But the wine is affected. You may have a different take away about the wine (it’s muted, good earth and leather, slight funk I’m digging) but it’s not what the wine would be without the TCA. If the wine isn’t identical in both situations, then corked is corked. It can be badly corked or lightly corked or corked but you don’t know it because you can’t identify it, but corked is corked.

Is it ‘corked’ if it is beneath your threshold of perception?

Yes for all of the reasons I stated above. If you open two bottles and they taste differently and you don’t know why, and it’s because one has TCA, it’s still corked just because you can’t discern WHY the two bottles taste differently.

[brodie_thomson]

There are three separate issues bring conflated as other posters have pointed out.

1. Presence or absence of TCA
2. Concentration of TCA when present
3. Taster’s individual sensitivity to TCA

Since I am a wine drinker and not a chemist who analyses every bottle, I am only interested in #3. My experience has been that there is a very wide range of sensitivity to TCA in tasters.

I was in a tasting group where one guy had very high (extreme) sensitivity to TCA. In fact it got to be a bit of joke as he was always the first to declare a wine corked - so the group developed a TCA ranking scheme named in his honour. The ranking scheme went from one to five, his name is removed to protect the innocent.

1. Only he could detect TCA in a wine, no one else
2. He detected TCA in a wine and after about 15 mins 1-2 tasters out of 12 would agree it “might be corked”
3. Half to 3/4 of the the folks would agree with him that it was corked fairly quickly
4. Clearly and obviously corked but 1 -2 tasters would persevere in insisting it was not corked (usually their bottle)
5. So badly corked that everyone could smell it from across the room as soon as the bottle was opened

[Anton_D]

But here’s my take. TCA affects the wine. If you cannot tell that it is TCA that affects the wine, okay, you can’t perceive it. But the wine is affected. You may have a different take away about the wine (it’s muted, good earth and leather, slight funk I’m digging) but it’s not what the wine would be without the TCA. If the wine isn’t identical in both situations, then corked is corked. It can be badly corked or lightly corked or corked but you don’t know it because you can’t identify it, but corked is corked.

Is it ‘corked’ if it is beneath your threshold of perception?

Yes for all of the reasons I stated above. If you open two bottles and they taste differently and you don’t know why, and it’s because one has TCA, it’s still corked just because you can’t discern WHY the two bottles taste differently.

So, if you don’t taste a difference, can it still be ‘corked?’

[K_John_Joseph]

But here’s my take. TCA affects the wine. If you cannot tell that it is TCA that affects the wine, okay, you can’t perceive it. But the wine is affected. You may have a different take away about the wine (it’s muted, good earth and leather, slight funk I’m digging) but it’s not what the wine would be without the TCA. If the wine isn’t identical in both situations, then corked is corked. It can be badly corked or lightly corked or corked but you don’t know it because you can’t identify it, but corked is corked.

you’re espousing a philosophical POV now; Can something exist without being perceived by consciousness?

If you don’t know you have cancer until it’s stage 4, do you actually have cancer? Sounds like a dumb philosophical POV when applied to reality.

[Victor_Hong]

My wife was a little bit pregnant once.

What part of that pregnancy was so little?

[K_John_Joseph]

Is it ‘corked’ if it is beneath your threshold of perception?

Yes for all of the reasons I stated above. If you open two bottles and they taste differently and you don’t know why, and it’s because one has TCA, it’s still corked just because you can’t discern WHY the two bottles taste differently.

So, if you don’t taste a difference, can it still be ‘corked?’

Yes. You just have a shitty palate because we deal in reality, not false perceptions. Or at least I try to.