Dioterie is generally an outstanding wine, and from my perspective, in big vintages say like 2005, 2009 and 2018, can be fairly large-scaled without being OTT (I have not tried 2018, just my speculation on knowing this estate). The 2005 is 14% ABV and is an ager. I like that 2007 very much. If I were to serve a non-geek wine guest a Loire CF, Dioterie might be the one. My favorite Joguet wine is the Chene Vert.
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Francophile here but Aaron Pott is doing some great things with Cab Franc in Napa as is Tom Garrett at Derert and Dakota shy. Try back vintages of la Jota’s cab franc.
FYI had a cab franc rose of Garrett last week that was really good.
If Lang and Reed is still available I do like their entry Cabernet Franc California bottling. Have not tried “Two-Fourteen” yet but will do so in the near future as that is one of the clones we grow in Connecticut…
I have the 2005 in magnum, any thoughts on how long this can age?
I still have a couple 750s that I am thinking 5 years. It’s a fairly big structured vintage. I had some Dioterie and Chene Vert last year from the mid-90s and they were in the zone. No reason to think of Loire CF in structured years like this to be any different than a St Emilion.
I popped a 2005 Rougeard Les Poyeaux this past year - and these are becoming hen’s teeth - and while loving it, sorta kicked myself for impatience. Definitely needs 5 more to shine for all it’s worth.
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Love Loire CFs but beware opening them prematurely - you may get a face full of green tannins.
Particularly fond of Baudry.
This is spot on with a nuance or two. Loire CFs age beautifully in all but the really poor vintages - and there are not many of those anymore. In fact, I find they can actually last longer than many Bordeaux. The great thing about them is that a vintage like 2014, 2016 or 2017 is easily accessible young, yet will improve over twenty years or more. I think they fool a lot of people, myself included, because when they taste “ready”, they don’t (apart from real exceptions like 2005) have the tannic structure which one subconsciously expects after drinking Bordeaux for years. As a result, I have routinely expected many older Loire CFs to fall apart, which they haven’t. On the contrary, they keep their freshness and appeal long afterwards.
For example, Couly Dutheil Clos de L’Echo 2001 - quite a good vintage but not an exceptional one - I first tried this eight years ago: it was deliciously smooth but fresh and deceptively light. Every year since I have opened one, expecting the end to be nigh - but it still tastes exactly like it did the first time.
I think also our perception of Loire CF’s ability to age is, consciously or not, influenced by Robert Parker. Throughout his career, with very few exceptions, he dismissed Loire CF as the sort of easy-going quaffing stuff that Parisians have for lunch. He was not wrong in that there are wines like that and Parisians do drink them for lunch, but he ignored all the good wines. Also, the taste profile of the vast majority of Loire CFs is the polar opposite of the type of wines he put on pedestals.
Of course, the paradox here is that there were a tiny minority of Loire owners who actually tried to create wines that he would like (step forward Arnaud Couly, whose 2005s are absolutely monstrous!) - but which I suspect he never tasted!
Chris, for the handful of 18’s I’ve had, I’d say ‘almost all of that’. Less a problem for heat, but the wines were low acid and just felt ‘clumsy’. The tobacco/gravel was hidden as well. Just very fruit-forward.
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Really?
Perhaps, it’s my relative fewness of having had aged Loire cab franc, but to compare them as longer-lasting than great 30±y-o samples from Cheval Blanc, Ausone, Figeac, Angelus, Pavie, Canon, Magdaleine, Tertre Roteboeuf, Troplong Mondotte and a host of others that I will limit to Saint Emilion is a deep, deep stretch.
Well as I made clear, it came as a surprise to me too! I was conditioned not to expect anything of the kind. Another three from Couly-Dutheil’s halcyon days, the Clos de L’Echo 89 and 90 plus the Clos de L’Olive 89 would embarrass some of the Bordeaux equivalents from the same vintages - and they cost substantially less. Taking the same producer, I would not be surprised now if the Echo Crescendo 97 was better today than any Bordeaux from the same year. This explains my confidence about more recent Loire vintages.
But you’re right - instead of “many” Bordeaux I should have written “some” Bordeaux.
I look forward to reading about it!
Could be differences in our sampling but, yes, some Loire could possibly embarrass a few, but not most '89 and '90 Bordeaux.
I also believe that the cost differential is wide but is also directionally justified given the difference in the level of craftmanship.
This.
Both are right. My read is that the OP (if looking for wines with great richness, extraction and fruit) would be better served to comb through examples of the grape from Napa. My favorites have been Realm’s Falstaff (63% CF), Morlet’s Force de la Nature is also really good (albeit it appears more expensive than Rougeard!). However, I super second the recommendation for Le Macchiole Paleo Rosso, especially as it ties into his leaning toward amarone.
The reality is that many of the CA wines suggested bear little to no resemblance to their Loire relatives. The more expensive ones have a thicker layer of oak makeup (looking at you, La Jota) and extraction, rendering them difficult to distinguish from Cabernet Sauvignon.
Due to its ripeness, fruit forward nature, higher alcohols, lower acids etc., I think the 2018 would be a fine place for the OP to start if venturing into the Loire, precisely because it is rather atypical. A crossover vintage, if you will.
However, I love Jonathan’s sentiment above - Taste an example of the grape from a stalwart producer in a back vintage and see if it speaks to you. It might but perhaps not in the way the OP expected!
Without that qualifier, I get where you are going, but think Ramon has it generally right from my perspective. The classics like Raffault can age and improve like a great Bordeaux, but generally do not have the same scale or lifecycle of the top-tier Bordeaux, many of which are cut and more prodiminant with the fleshier grape merlot or the more structured grape Cabernet. I flat out love the 89 and 90 Loire vintages, Raffault made some beauties, but like Ramon notes, the big boy 89 and 90 Bordeaux will go longer and some 89s are still evolving (think, Picton Baron). I think the 89 Raffault is nearing the end of its maturity, though it could fool, as I have had some Raffault from the 1970s (which, incidentally, I did not think was showing any greater level of complexity as a result of that extra 10+ years).
Now that said, I am also convinced that Rougeard will buck the general view there. I have not had a Rougeard with more than 15 years on it, but those that I have had with 15 years, tell me these will go deep and evolve beautifully, if I can keep my grubby paws off of them.
No one has yet mentioned Hungarian Cabernet Franc. For pure value and an ability to age with surprising class in a Bordeaux style wines like those from Villány may well knock your socks off.
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I haven’t had many '18s at all, and I have hated '18 as a vintage in some regions, especially Beaujolais, but I really liked Baudry’s '18 les Granges and Domaine. They struck me as really enjoyable wines in a forward style that did not require long aging. I also have Grezeaux but haven’t tried it yet. It’s not a vintage I went very deep on, but I enjoyed those I’ve tried.
A bit outside your price target but I highly recommend Le Macchiole Paleo (~$80). A distinctly Tuscan Maremma version that is really outstanding.
I can second the Paleo - I have 1996 that still drinks very well.