Burgundy and Biodynamie

WINE TALK
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Clive Coates says on his website that 1600 ha, or 5.3% of the surface area of Burgundy, is now being cultivated biodynamically. This would be 5.3% of all of Burgundy, including Chablis, Auxerrois, Côte Chalonnaise, Hautes Côtes de Beaune and Nuits, Mâconnais, etc., not just the Côte d’Or.

I do not know the source of Clive’s 1600 ha number, but if true, it is really amazing. Given the higher cost of biodynamic agriculture, we can assume that the percentage of grand cru and top premier cru vineyards in biodynamie is (substantially) disproportionately higher, and indeed higher than I think any of us previously had suspected.

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I wonder what the percentage of the Cote d’Or is?

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WEll, FWIW, I think that some people in Burgundy (i.e., the winemakers, vignerons, etc) define Biodynamie a lot looser than they do in Alsace (where they have everything Demeter-certified). I have no idea of Clive’s information source (and doubt he’s done much digging beyond his source), but I’ve paid a fair amount of attention getting to know Biodynamie as it’s practiced in Alsace. And, I think some people who say they do things in Burgundy that way…are doing something very different…and very selectively, too.

It sounds way high/ booze de vaches in bullhorns…to me, unless, maybe he’s including the charolais and poulet de bresse farmers’ lands…and the epoisses dairy farmers, etc.

But, I have no real idea, of course.

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it’s always made me smirk a bit considering biodynamics among vignerons who only have a few rows in a particular vineyard. It’s one thing if a Monopole goes BD, but a few rows in, say Clos Vougeot, makes no sense. The pesticides and other non-BD interventions certainly would impact those BD vines . . .
alan

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Just got back and had a similar conversation with someone about this. Quite interesting for sure.

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Well I guess you know who a lot of them are… although they might not respect the byodinamic dogma to the letter. I think Vincent Dauvissat would e.g. be counted in the Bio-D camp, as would many others.

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Guillaume, what gives you that idea?

I’ve never talked to him about it and if I had a reason to, I certainly would have. Most of those guys can’t spend ten sentences without some reference to the precepts or practices of BD. Vincent hasn’t ever said a thing of the kind, though in 1996, he was orgasmic (literally it seemed) when he took us out into his Preuses holdings, which were then in floraisin…and smelled great, though he picked a lot more of it than I did.

Do you know, by the way, whether there is any entity that controls who can call themselves BD in Burgundy, as there is in Alsace? Anyone know?

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Well, he doesn’t seem to be shy talking about it, and you can clearly see books or magazines or even order forms there for BD products when you walk into the office. It didn’t look like it was a secret. It’s just the first producer that came to my mind, but there are obviously quite a few more.

A lot of producers do it very quietly, without fuss, sometimes because they just want to try it out, sometimes because they are unsure, sometimes because they feel it’s a personal choice and should not be used as a marketing trick, etc. There are also so many flavours of this, with Bio, Bio-D, lutte raisonnée and what not, and so much experimentation going on that producers probably don’t want to open that specific can of worms and have to explain themselves or even justify themselves to just about anybody and everybody who happens to walk through their door.

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Stuart,

Certification groups like Demeter or others exist in Burgundy as they do in other regions, such as Alsace. The fact is that only so many of the people farming organically bother with the organic certification and so many of those farming organically and biodynamically bother with the biodynamic certification. As you can imagine, there is quite a lot of red tape involved. On a personal level, we began farming some of our vineyards organically and biodynamically in 2001. We finally decided to begin the organic certification process just over a year and have decided to skip the BD certification altogether, as frankly, I am still sceptical as to whether we will stick with it.

As to whether Burgundians are “as biodynamic” as Alsacians, I will quote the leader of the little class I took in biodynamics: “if you talk to 10 different biodynamicists, you will get 10 different definitions of biodynamics.” Biodynamics is very much about intent and intuition. How outspoken people are about it is personality dependent in my mind, but you cannot question the sincerity of people like Frederic Lafarge, Didier Montchovet, the Rossignol-Trapet brothers, et al.


Alan,

I agree with you that in some vineyards where I only have a few rows, my vineyards get exposure to what is being sprayed in my neighbor’s vineyards. However, that doesn’t force me to spray everything my neighbor sprays and it is really only the adjacent row that really gets to share my neighbor’s delicious pesticides. I have to keep doing what I see as best for my vineyards and live with the rest. I would argue that the most significant thing we have done since my father started the domaine has been to stop herbicides (one of the major steps in a place as wet as Burgundy can be, in terms of man hours and vineyard work on the way to organic farming) was to stop herbicides. Those are products that are sprayed straight on the ground and really do not go from one vineyard to the next.

For the rest, I invite you to visit around harvest time and have a look. Frequently, farming organically or biodynamically is part of a bigger whole. When talking to colleagues, what is recurrent is that they have decided that they thought it was the best system to produce grapes that make the wines they like best (better expression of vineyard site is a recurrent observation and I certainly concur), leading to a willingness to take some risks with regards to fungal disease. These risks mean that you have to spend a lot of time in your vineyards, knowing their weaknesses (e.g. we know which of our vineyards are most sensitive to powdery mildew and monitor them more closely). All in all, I would say that to be successful with those farming methods, you have to be a better farmer than you would be otherwise. I think our vineyards, as well as those of many colleagues reflect that and that is what I would suggest you have a look at.

Best,
JS

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Jeremy, and I hope you are tolerant to praise, you are our lifeline to the heartbeat of burgundy, and in a language we understand … and yes, I post post bottle ! Please continue to translate and interpret for those of us who find the wines and region fascinating and unforgettable.

Why debate. Who cares. If the people that are the best farmers take more care of their wines and practice some occasional strange nearly pagan rites and the wine tastes great isn’t it wonderful.

My only concern is from a bio-derversity angle. It seems dangerous for everyone to follow the one prophet.

Once again please continue to translate the heartbeat of burgundy to us,

Yours sincerely,

Anthony Hall.

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All of the threads on this board begin with a pretty specific subject or inquiry. I try to be guided by them and to stay focused. I rarely start threads, for some reason. Claude started an interesting thread and then has disappeared to let us “fight” it out, apparently.

I do think the “problem” here is one of definition…not a value judgment on what various winemakers are trying to accomplish. The question posed to begin this thread is about whether significant amounts of the surface areas are “in biodynamie”. Without some objective…or nearly objective…criteria for assessing that, it can’t be done.

Those certifying entities exist to add objective criteria, albeit with tons of red tape, I’m sure. Seeing BD catalogues or products or having a winemaker say he thinks it’s a great idea is all a plus (I guess), but doesn’t mean he’s farming/making wine “biodynamically” or “in” or “converted to” BD. Otherwise, anyone and everyone could take dribs and drabs of its practices and say they are…and no one could argue one way or another. (And, certainly, some of its practices are non-controversial, even with the most skeptical.)

I’m not saying a certified BD estate/parcel is better; it might not be. But, in answering this question, informal, ill-defined criteria and self-labeling or interest or BD catalogues, by themselves, don’t say to me that they are “re-converted” to BD. I remain ignorant of the estates that are, by some outside view, really in BD, by the rigorous definition of those in Alsace who do it. As Jeremy says, otherwise, the description is left to each practitioner, which is effectively a meaningless label. Bravo to those who are trying to do “it”, even if well short of certification. I am a fan; I don’t believe there is any downside for the consumer or for the earth, though the labor is intense. But, we do need to recognize what the self-labeling or presence of BD catalogues and enthusiasm mean …and…most importantly, don’t mean on the question on this thread.

Personally, though I know of some of the winemakers in Burgundy I’ve regularly (more aptly sporadically) visited over the years are very interested and some are informed and have tried aspects of BD, none of the great group of winemakers I’ve focused on have ever tried to argue that they are “reconverted to BD”, as the saying goes…at least as of 2007.

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Stuart,

To stay on topic would require Clive Coates to tell us where he derives that seemingly number from. Until then questioning its veracity will lead to nothing at all.
As to defining BD, it simply does not lend itself to an easy definition. Some would no doubt disagree, but as far as what actually goes into the vineyard, it is essentially organic farming to which are added certain preparations, e.g. Bouse de Corne (prep. 500) or silica (prep. 501). These two examples have to be applied at least once yearly to obtain BD certification. Then BD certification has placed lower limits on the total quantity of elemental copper that one may use (5 year average) than the organic certification, but that is just a line in the sand. So as you can tell, all it takes is to use to preparations and be organic and you can call yourself biodynamic. I hope this gives you an adequate idea of the vagueness of what exactly is biodynamics.

Many biodynamicists will therefore define it as a way of thinking, of approaching and solving problems, timing operations to astral influences, etc. But these things hardly fall into the scope of a certification.

I suspect that at best, Clive Coates’ number comes from some sort of informal survey and would incorporate strict biodynamicists (certified and part of the believers) and consequently less strict biodynamicists who are merely experimenting with it. I have a hard time believing that the surface corresponds only to certified vineyards. Possibly it is also a number concerning all of agriculture, not just viticulture. Again, that is all speculation.


Anthony: thank you for the kind words! But no more praise: I get big headed.

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Jeremy, I don’t disagree with you (though I don’t know how much the mystical part ,and the strict adherence to the lunar calendar for composting, etc figure into certification.) Given the vague nature of the term, as we both agree, I think the reason to apply the certification by some “outside” entity has to be the criterion to have a meaningful answer to the query, whether it is about BD, bio, or any of the disciplines that people follow , ostensibly formally. We can always argue about even the basis for those certifications, but, at least we’re all talking about the same thing. Interesting stuff, for sure.

Demeter Demystified - Organic Wine Journal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for anyone interested in the nature of the Demeter/BD certication process , at least in the US…

Just curious, why you’re pursuing “certification” on the organic aspect, ie, what the value of the certification is to you and your family?

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Quite a nice thread to read.

Jeremy or Stuart. What would be the benefit to get a BD certification?

I can understand this for a up and coming winery/domain…but for somebody who is established I’m not sure I see the benefit.

Thoughts?

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I’ve read some of Steiner’s work–translated into English as my German is not up to technical snuff for such reading–and I find it interesting–as Jeremy intimated, one of the biggest advantages is that the farmer (vigneron on this board) is in better and closer touch with his vines; he knows them more intimately, what they need, don’t need and how they are doing. This, to me, is a bigger advantage (and makes more sense) than buried cow horns and homeopathic treatments.

Personally, I’m not sure I understand where biologique ends and biodynamique begins . . .

I remember discussing this w/Anne-Claude Leflaive who has battled with Michel Niellon; the former is biodynamic while the latter sprays and sprays (she said). She was upset with the treatments reaching her adjacent BD Chevalier vines. It was that conversation that I recalled when I made my post.

Jeremy indicates that it’s only the adjacent row of biodynamic vines that may get “hit” by the nonbiodynamic vigneron’s treatments. Hopefully there’s little spraying during windy days so that remains true! Whatever is being done at Dujac is certainly working–the wines are great–maybe I’ll dig up a 90 Clos la Roche for tonight . . . even if that is pre-biodynamic.

Great thread.

alan

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Alan,
There is no denying that the further you move away from a neighbor’s vineyard, the less you find traces of his spraying in your vineyards, but really, the first row takes the brunt of it as the spraying is at vine level and trellised vineyards are good wind barriers. The rest does potentially travel quite far, but in small concentrations. That is clearlyone of the numerous advantages enjoyed by monopolies or other owners of large single pieces of vineyards.
Very brave of you to read Steiner. I haven’t had the dedication yet. I must admit that I see much of BD as working through “less is more” type of magic. Essentially, as you are better at observing and anticipating, you deal with many problems earlier, perhaps even before they occur. I think it’s good to think of the vineyards as an ecosystem that needs to be kept in balance by regular work. Don’t work it and you’ll have a forest in place of a vineyard; overwork it and it won’t be sustainable.

Stuart and Michael,
We pursue organic certification for a couple of reasons. The first is that if I say that I am organic, yet don’t hold the certification, then French customs can nail me for fraud. In this case, truth would not qualify as valid defense. You can only claim to be organic if you are certified. I realize that a number of domaines bend/break that rule, but we have decided to play it by the book.
The second reason is that we think that the organic movement needs to gain in mass if it is to survive. For instance, a few years ago, bowing to the pressure of petro-chemical lobbies, the government tried to ban the use of nettle manure (“purin d’ortie”) a harmless product if ever there was one, especially when compared with other fertilizers. They also threatened to prosecute people who advocated its use, etc. , etc… If organic production represented a larger number of voters and businesses, this kind of bullshit would never happen. In government statistics, consistent with my previous point, only certified productions are taken into account. We wish to add our small number of hectares to the count.

Finally, and this may sound presumptuous, I think that domaines such as ours that are fortunate to have a certain notoriety should support the production means they believe in by lending some of their credibility. In our case, visiting colleagues such as Lafon, Leflaive or DRC played no small role in our transition. They were helpful in telling us about their experiences, the organization of work, new equipment, etc. We try to keep a door open as well to offer advice and share our experience with other local producers that express curiosity. It’s very reassuring to know that it actually can work and that you can still arrive at harvest with a healthy crop!

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Alan, I’ve plowed through Nicolas Joly’s book (in English) on the movement in France and its basics. Book Review: Biodynamic Wine, Demystified by Nicholas Joly : Vinography" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Though I’ve read some Steiner (in English) it is more abstract and less specific to wine and more to agriculture generally, so…
And, FWIW, there is very bad blood between the Leflaives and Michel Niellon. I think in the Chevalier holdings, the Leflaives are uphill and had a wall they let fall into disrepair and it allowed Niellon’s holding to get flooded and the topsoil washed away. Niellon, around 2004, told me the whole story and about the lawsuit, where Hubert deMontille was his lawyer…Niellon was very unhappy with the result as I remember: I think they were made to fix the wall, but not pay for replacing the topsoil…or ruining the vines that were ruined. So…

Jeremy, it sounds like the French bureaucracy should add this to its list of everything else they seem to rule with such efficiency? I admire anyone who’s willing to try to take on biodynamie in a serious way, with a goal toward certification. (Ditto with bio, though not as much admiration.) I think the more visible domaines’ doing it can spur the others to do so, too…maybe for commercial reasons, as much as anything. However, biodynamie is very labor intensive, and , at least in Burgundy, those who “follow” it seem to include estates where they can pay lots of labor costs to have it done: Leflaive, Leroy, et als. The “lesser” guys who might want to follow the example probably don’t have the resources, even if they do have the spirit, so…that’s an issue. (In Alsace, the estate owners are very much hands on when they “reconvert” and I do really admire those guys’ willingness to take it on; their holdings, for the most part, are fractured as in Burgundy…little holdings here and there, and in the middle of others’ which are not likely to follow BD.) I look at BD as a reversion to the methods that the ancients used to create the products that made people get excited about them in the first place…and not much more. For me, the consumer, there is no downside that I know of even if an “upside” can’t be proven. Ditto with organic…which was how everyone farmed until petrochemicals appeared and “solved” many problems…in the 20th century.

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Jeremy,
Thanks for the information on the legal aspect of getting certified. This whole process is quite long and takes some dedication on part of the producer/grower.

Jeremy, by you working your vineyards this way have you cause your neighbors to change the ways they operate in their portion of the vineyard?

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Stuart,

I have to take exception with BD as

. I have never heard of biodynamics pre-dating Steiner in anyway. Obviously, there would have been organic production pre chemical age. Even bouillie bordelaise is quite recent. But when looking back, I see no traces of anything mentioning dynamisation in any form, cow horns being buried filled with dung, or silica, or homeopathic doses of anything. Spraying, for that matter, doesn’t even go that far back that I can tell. No, olden days had the advantage of having no phylloxera so using ungrafted rootstocks, and apparently not having any mildew or oidium problems. For the rest, prior to the 19th century, wine was rarely kept for any amount of time, most being drunk straight out of the barrel. Bottles are not all that old either. I have a strong suspicion that we would not have like 16-17th century wine with more than a couple of years on it all that much by today’s tastes. Let’s not romanticize the past too much. [worship.gif] They died young and had terrible hygiene. I don’t see any evidence whatsoever that they were terribly keen on quality or low yields. As far as I can tell, they took the easier path where possible. The choice to move to chemical means of production was not made by the last 2 generations, it was made by those same “ancients” who saw a way to make their work easier and more financially rewarding. No doubt it seemed right at the time.

Michael, a fews interns have been working their way to organics at their home estates, but no immediate neighbor has changed, no. But a few are thinking about it and that is more than could be said a few years ago. Whether we were a part of that or no, I don’t know.

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