Building a Passive Cellar - Advice, Comments, Insults?

WINE TALK
21

Some good points above, and somethings I will do different next time around.

To answer the quesstion, yes, we are 4 miles from the beach, and humidity can get high enough that I need to put a portable humidifier in the cellar long enough to get it back down. I run it routinely in the other unfinished part of the cellar and that helps as well.

The reason I put it in a place with all interior walls is for the very reasons cited above concerning proximity to furnace, hot water heater, etc.

So, what I would do differently…Agree with the point about diminishing returns on insulation and I probably over-achieved leavng more space between the studded walls than needed, at the cost of more room in the cellar. I would put more thought into lighting than I did, not just from a visual perspective but also from a functional perspective. Getting enough light, but not too much light is not necessarily a simple task, particularly if your cellar is not just a rectangle. And, next time I will use a different mix of racking. I used alot of diamond and individual bottle racking and we have alot of burg (red and white) bottles which do not fit well in either.

22

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I expect it will prove very helpful

Chris, thanks a lot! I’m sure you are correct about the insulation. The one thing I have lots of is space, so I thought I would be aggressive with the insulation, but that may have been silly. Fortunately, the furnace and boiler are not proximate to the space; both are new and seem quite efficient, as the basement was cool when I did the inspection despite finished portion of the house being quite warm.

As for active cooling, will I need anything other than electricity and a small, high window (for venting)? I have both of those in the space and can uncover/uninsulate the window as needed to run exhaust out.

Cheers!

  • Frank [cheers.gif]
23

Yeah, 15 x 15 only? Are you nuts, that’s way too small [wink.gif]

seriously, good luck and I can’t offer any building advice but you did ask for insults so… neener

24

I built an 8x12 “functional” not “show” cellar. Floor and back wall is concrete and three walls with 2x4 frame with insluation and sheetrock with vaport barrier facing the basement side. I use the mighty Kenmore AC unit when the cellar temp gets above 60 deg F in Summer. Seasonal range is 50-60 (slow movements). The AC keeps the humidity down in the Summer and I add a container of water in the Winter to add humidity. Works fine.

25

Can’t help with cellar, but when you get settled, I am more than willing to come drink and watch you build it!

26

Somebody in the thread said that you have Summer highs of only 65?? If that’s the case, and assuming you have a bit of shade on those exterior wall tops, you really should be fine. I have to deal with lots of 90-100+ days in August.

27

Good luck with the project Frank. I’m getting ready for a move as well, to Buffalo in May. We bought a house that has an excellent candidate for a wine cellar in the basement. It’s the old coal cellar, earth on two sides and very thick foundation walls on the other sides although they are interior walls. Basement is almost fully under grade.

Downsides are: southern side of house, boiler and hot water heater on other side of one internal wall, it’s a bit on the small side with some funny internal dimensions. I think a passive cellar is going to be difficult but I should be able to get by with very minimal cooling.

I’ll certainly keep track of your cellar project and post my progress as well.

28

Frank, I also have a passive cellar in my basement (basement floor about 5 ft below ground level) in the form of a wine cabinet (plywood sandwiched with insulation (6 in. thick) for the top and sides, cabinet standing 4 ft tall, with I in. thick doors) built into the corner of the basement on the inside of the outer wall to take advantage of cooling from the cinderblock walls and cement floor. I also stack some bottles on the floor and ultilize metal racking which is further cooled by contact with the basement floor. Bottle temps range from 54 F in the winter up to 65-67 F in August. Given that you are further north (I am in DC) in ME, you should have even better conditions for passive storage. 15 X 15 sounds big and will be a little harder to keep cool than if you were going to build, let’s say, a 15 X 6 cellar to take advantage of your outer walls. Also, given that you are only about 5-6 ft below ground, you may want to go with a lower ceiling (e.g., 6.5 - 7 ft) for less exposure to above the ground temps. Best of luck. I often visit southern ME (York) and the lakes region in the summer. Great state! Cheers, Jim

29

I disagree with this. All four walls should be insulated, and the “coolness” comes from the floor, I believe.

30

I believe Lewis is correct. Think of the cellar as equalizing to the temperature it is exposed to: the uninsulated floor, as modified by the transfer of heat through the walls and ceilling with the insulation. The ground temp that far below ground is remarkably stable. I built a passive cellar a la Gold last fall in my basement in Oregon and have been very pleased with the results so far. The best part is having nothing mechanical to worry about. I advise following his recomendations for the vapor barrier and insulation. Also get a remote temp and humidity monitor so you can track the conditions in the space accurately. R-19 in the walls with 6 inch studs. In my case the ceiling is about R 11 as it is under a concrete garage floor and I probably underestimated the R value. The temp drops 2 or 3 degrees during cold spells, so will probably go up a like amount in summer heat waves. Lesson is to ensure adequate insulation on all surfaces. My Bare concrete floor at about 9 feet below ground. Temp thru the winter has stayed between 51 and 56 with humidity of 60 - 70 %. For a door I built a bulkhead type with a hollow core door that I ripped the back off, filled with insulation, and then bolted rigid insulation on the inside. Seems to work well and the outside surface still looks like the original door. The adage to build twice the size cellar that you think you need is the best advice that you will hear.

31

Frank,

If the cellar is super insulated and needs minimal cooling I’d try to use a through the wall type system (easy and cost effective). To prep for this all you will have to do is add some horizontal framing members between the wall studs, then you can just fill with insulation and sheetrock over it. In the event you need cooling just cut the opening out and slide the unit in. With an unfinished basement electrical condensate and ventilation can be done from the exterior. Added cost $0.

32

I ripped out an interior “closet” in our basement when we moved in, and turned it into a passive storage area (calling it a cellar might be a stretch). I have the largest wall racked out, and I think it can hold about 400 bottles at capacity. I tiled out the floor, just to make it look nice, and put new glass door on it. No vapor barrier or additional insulation, and the temperature gauge shows a fairly constant 62-64 degrees throughout the year. I’ll probably run out of space before I ever become concerned with those temperatures, in which case it will just give me an excuse to build an active cellar.

33

Thanks for all the feedback! I won’t start construction until August at the earliest, so I’ll investigate all of the recommendations.

Cheers!

  • Frank [cheers.gif]