Brief TN - 2009 Carlisle Mourvedre - Bedrock Vyd.

WINE TALK
1

Brought this along to dinner at the Ballard Inn to celebrate Matt and Melissa’s recent nuptials. Decanted and enjoyed over the course of the 4 hour meal . . . .

Had a little pour before going into the decanter and was mesmerized by the aromas - more fruit-forward than savory to start with, with lots of dark cherry and spice. After decanting for awhile, glasses were poured for all, and I enjoyed mine over the next few hours. Continued to open up and a strong vanilla/caramel aromatic seemed to dominate after awhile, with undertones of meatiness and a cool earthy quality. I saw that this was 20% new oak - wondering if there was any American oak used?

Would love to revisit in a few years to see where the wine goes when the oak begins to subside (I’m guessing . . .)

Cheers!

2

Larry, I seriously doubt it.

3

Mike, why do you say that? Some great wines are aged in American oak, Ridge Geyserville for example.

4

Craig - absolutely and I’m one of this Board’s biggest Ridge fans (all Ridge is aged in American oak, I believe). But I don’t think Mike uses AO.

5

Mike,

My guess is that you are probably correct, but it’s always good to ask - and unlike other winemakers, I know that Mike will tell me straight [snort.gif] neener newhere

American oak certainly seems to have its place with domestic producers, with a bunch of it being used with Petite Sirah, zin, and even cabs (as well as some whites). I’m not a big fan of it for my wines because, to me, even older American oak barrels ‘make themselves known’ a bit more than I’d like.

Cheers!

6
7

Thanks Peter - yep, there’s ALWAYS ways to get the info you need, but what’s the fun of that?!?!? Isn’t it so much more fun to ponder and take wild stabs?!?!?!? [wow.gif]

Not sure I have another bottle to lay down and follow - may have to reach out to others more fortunate than me to trade . . .

Cheers!

8

Thanks to Larry for bringing this baby out to enjoy at our dinner! Here’s my notes- which I think are pretty similar to Larry’s-

“Dark plum and blackberry fruit notes, with brambly earth tones and a vanilla oak note that emerged. Full and deep palate with added meaty flavors that filled in around the earthy fruit. Round ripe tannins and a full finish. Very nice.”

I definitely agree that this one’s got some time for that oak and spice to integrate and enhance an already deep and complex profile.

Obviously Larry and I are friends (disclaimer!), and I really enjoy his wines, but I’ll add that Larry’s 2010 White Hawk Syrah and his 2010 Mourvedre were very worthy Rhone-style rivals to the Carlisle on the table that night!

Larry- I may have to post a note on the 94 Montelena Estate??

9

Having been at his winery and discussed oak barrels with Mike Officer in some depth (somewhere I have a slew of photos of the different wood grains), I think Mr. Dildine is correct. I do not recall seeing any American oak and I seem to recall that when I asked Mike about his barrel sources, he listed a bunch of French producers.

10

Matt,

TN on the Monty was already posted . . . .

And the American Oak comment was based solely on flavors and aromas experienced in this one wine. As others have pointed out, Mike most likely (or definitely) does NOT use American oak with his wines . . . . not that there’s anything wrong with that (-:

Cheers!

11

deleted

12

Hi Larry,

As our website states, all French oak, 20% new. We played around with a barrel or two of American oak in the early 2000s but we didn’t like the results so stuck to French. This year we trialed a Hungarian oak barrel but I haven’t tried wine out of it yet.

As for the '09 Mourvèdre, the one lone new oak barrel was an Ermitage Never/Vosges blend with M+ toast. The other barrels ranged from 5 to 8 years old. I don’t question your perception of American oak but I do wonder if the aromas/flavors could have been yeast-derived or perhaps inherent to the fruit. I just read a tasting note on our '11 Two Acres. The taster commented on the “significant vanillin oak” that finally “blew off” on day 3. However, the wine didn’t come anywhere near a new oak barrel. I’ve also seen comments about the oak on Three Birds. Again, another wine that never sees any new oak.

We’re averaging about 18% new wood a year and have really honed in on coopers that don’t contribute much in the way of aroma and flavor, only texture. This is down from about an average of 35% and much more aggressive barrels in the early to mid-2000s. Yet, oddly enough, it seems that I see more comments about oak on our wines today than before. Kind of a head-scratcher.

13

Mike,

I know what you mean. The ‘newest’ oak I’ve ever used on my wines is 2 year old, with the vast majority in that 5-8 year old range . . . and yet I do have folks talk about the ‘oak influence’ on the wines . . . Yep, certainly a head scratcher.

Beautiful wine, Mike, don’t get me wrong. Enjoyed by the entire table and then some . . . .

Would love to get another bottle to lay down for awhile - wanna trade?!?!?!?!

Cheers!

14

I’ve seen people confuse the influence of whole cluster for oak when tasting a wine that saw only neutral oak.

But that wouldn’t explain the vanilla comments…

15

Does it matter if perceived oak flavor is from oak or yeast or {something else}? Unless there’s a chemistry-related factor at play here (i.e.: re: ageability), I can’t imagine a scenario where the answer is “Yes.”

I don’t see folks complaining about the term “meaty” when it’s used in a TN, even though — surely — no meat was used on the wine. Why is oak any different?

16

The original poster wondered if American oak had been used. I was answering that question. And as a winemaker, yes, my intellectual curiosity wants to know from where “oak flavors” are derived, whether it’s from oak or something else. Obviously you don’t share the same curiosity.

17

I’ve seen numerous winemakers complain when they see some form of “oaky” used to describe their wines (railing on and on about malo flavors, yeast, lees, neutral barrels, low toast barrels, old barrels, stems, etc. etc. etc. …), yet it’s extremely rare to see such reaction to other descriptors. Why? Why is it that folks seem to care more about where “oak flavors” come from than they do where so many other flavors (i.e.: meaty; floral; etc. …) come from? What makes “oaky” so relatively important?


And, thank you, Mike, for telling me the extent to which I am intellectually curious about from what “oak flavors” derive. Maybe you could also tell me the extent to which I am intellectually curious about from where your highly defensive attitude derives. That would be pretty dandy. [thumbs-up.gif]

18

Brian,

Winemakers who get ‘worked up’ because folks mention the use of new oak when none are used are ‘weenies’ . . . No need to get worked up, and as Mike mentioned, it is an interesting observation that requires a little explanation. That’s all. And you’re right - winemakers seem to like their wines attached to ‘meatiness’ - wonder why?!?!? newhere

Consumers at every knowledge level ‘perceive’ things that aren’t there - again, no need to get ‘worked up’ - just need clarification from time to time . . .

Cheers . . .

19

Clarifying wrong factual statements is one thing, complaining about subjective perception is another; my posts are in regards to the latter.

My above two posts were inspired by this thread, but were not necessarily a direct commentary on any of the prior posts herein (which is why I didn’t quote any prior post in my Post #15). fwiw.

Happy New Year to you, Larry. I hope you’ve been enjoying 2014 so far! [cheers.gif]

20

Brian,

A Happy New Year back at ya! And I know that you weren’t busting Mike’s chops nor taking shots at anyone in particular - unlike me and my ‘weenie’ comment (-:

Cheers!