Bordeaux 2005 - 12 Years On. Blind tasted.

[Chris_Seiber]

@Robert Alfert

Pavie is an interesting discussion. Perhaps this is where terroir can partly overcome manipulation to some degree. While I thought most of the 2005 St. Ems that I had where objectively bad, Pavie to me, is only subjectively not great. I see the quality of the materials and totally see how this wine appeals to many fans. It is very Napa, and Napa sells. I could not call it elegant, it’s a pretty big, dense and bold wine. Not my style, but I get that it appeals to many, including some close friends of mine. I have had this wine multiple times, including a bottle back in July shared with one person over a dinner.

That is a terrific example of how to write thoughtfully about wines in a style one doesn’t prefer. Well done, Robert.

[Panos_Kakaviatos]

@Jürgen Steinke

Panos,

Vauthier decided to lower the % of new oak over the last vintages. Most of them being good but not outstanding more or less. (2015 the exception). When another 2005 comes along – will this wine be raised in lesser new oak?

BTW: 2005 Petrus is raised in less new oak but wasn’t amongst the wines of the vintage at this blind tasting.

I am not sure about that. His daughter told me even for the next “big vintage” … Which I would applaud.

And so Petrus was not in the top in this particular blind tasting. I know what I like, and Petrus in 2005 is damn hard to beat, according to my stylistic preference.

Of course, for the affordable version (in terms of style, in terms of favoring cooler fruit expressions and judicious balance of oak and alcohol in a “big vintage”) of that superb wine, there is always VCC. And “affordable” is relative here, as VCC is also quite pricey…

[Panos_Kakaviatos]

@Chris Seiber

@Robert Alfert

Pavie is an interesting discussion. Perhaps this is where terroir can partly overcome manipulation to some degree. While I thought most of the 2005 St. Ems that I had where objectively bad, Pavie to me, is only subjectively not great. I see the quality of the materials and totally see how this wine appeals to many fans. It is very Napa, and Napa sells. I could not call it elegant, it’s a pretty big, dense and bold wine. Not my style, but I get that it appeals to many, including some close friends of mine. I have had this wine multiple times, including a bottle back in July shared with one person over a dinner.

That is a terrific example of how to write thoughtfully about wines in a style one doesn’t prefer. Well done, Robert.

Agree. Very well expressed.

[Joe_S]

@Chris Seiber

@Robert Alfert

Pavie is an interesting discussion. Perhaps this is where terroir can partly overcome manipulation to some degree. While I thought most of the 2005 St. Ems that I had where objectively bad, Pavie to me, is only subjectively not great. I see the quality of the materials and totally see how this wine appeals to many fans. It is very Napa, and Napa sells. I could not call it elegant, it’s a pretty big, dense and bold wine. Not my style, but I get that it appeals to many, including some close friends of mine. I have had this wine multiple times, including a bottle back in July shared with one person over a dinner.

That is a terrific example of how to write thoughtfully about wines in a style one doesn’t prefer. Well done, Robert.

Chris - what don’t you like about Robert’s writing style?

[Gary_Ahearn]

Interesting. Especially the St. Emilion wines. Case in point: 2005 Troplong Mondot–the average score among the tasters was less than 15.5. Contrast that to the most recent scores on Cellartracker for the '05 Troplong Mondot: 100 (Jeff Leve, a month ago), then 96, 97, 98, 94. Was thinking about buying a bottle or two, but this report gives me pause.

[Panos_Kakaviatos]

@Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡

@Ian A

When we did a St-Emilion “first growth” dinner in London two years ago I couldn’t finish my glass of 2005 Pavie. I found it abhorrent. It clearly needed a lot of time but it was anyone’s guess around the table how it would evolve over time.

I have a lot of sympathy for the proposition that great terroir will win out over manipulation in the long run, especially as I have seen it happen, so I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility of the Perse era Pavies eventually coming round. The 2005 Angelus was drinkable but so overtly manipulated to taste superficially flattering, but the wine underneath was prosaic.

Getting back to the Farr’s tasting I found it interesting that Ausone was the pick of the right banks. I know some seasoned tasters over here who regard modern Ausones as being overly manipulated, even a ‘horror show.’

Good to hear from you Ian, and thanks for the data point. I sold my 2005 Pavie several yars ago, and while at its infancy it tasted less “spoofed”, I wouldn’t be shocked if it comes up like that over time. To my palate “spoof” becomes apparent with some age, unless its completely out of whack in infancy (e.g., many 2009s!). I recall tasting in the last 5 years various mid-aged Pape Clements which are too spoof to my palate, but are enjoyable to those that don’t miss out on “grip” and prefer round/smooth tannins and jam fruit. Chacun à son goût…

Regarding 2005s, having tasted it broadly, I’m somewhat dismayed to hear these updates on the St Emillions. The vintage should have provided ample lattitude for vignerons to produce balanced wines. Sure, merlot required a bit more care, but this seems in hindsight like point mongering for a fatigued Parker palate.

For traditionalists, it’s pretty clear: avoid all recent St Emillion until there’s more clarity as to whether or not the recent practices of these chateau bear wines of classical style. Only time will really tell.

Faryan, it is nice to read you here. We must get together again one day. I still recall the Figeac tasting with Eric d’Aramon at Ruth’s Chris. Have you had the Palmer 2005 again recently? If so, what are your thoughts?

[Craig_G]

@Joe S.

@Chris Seiber

That is a terrific example of how to write thoughtfully about wines in a style one doesn’t prefer. Well done, Robert.

Chris - what don’t you like about Robert’s writing style?

Oh, very well played indeed!

[Faryan_Amir-Ghassemi]

Panos - it’s been too long, and keep up the good work. Have not had 05 Palmer since we tasted it blind with other 05 Margaux circa 2011?

Perhaps a blind 05 bdx revisit is in order the next time you’re stateside.

[Ed_Steinway]

Thank you for the link to the Farr Vintners tasting, Soren. When I first started learning about and drinking Bordeaux, my late uncle told me that Meyney usually punched above its price point, especially in good vintages. I need to try another bottle soon.

Thanks,
Ed

[Marc_Frontario]

FYI
…some extreme bottle variation with the Meyney…u drink one beautiful bottle and then the next will be a borderline undrinkable oak shake

I have experienced this first hand

[Ed_Steinway]

Thanks for the info regarding the bottle variation, Marc.

Thanks,
Ed

[Dustin_B]

Starting to hear more of these type of reports on 2005 St. Emilions. May be time to move on from the ones I purchased.

Also happy to hear more glowing reports on the 2005 La Mission. I once sent some of my bottles to auction shortly after it was released. Ended up not meeting the reserve and they were returned to me. I am thrilled those bottles did not sell now.

[Victor_Hong]

@Dustin Buchko

Starting to hear more of these type of reports on 2005 St. Emilions. May be time to move on from the ones I purchased.

Also happy to hear more glowing reports on the 2005 La Mission. I once sent some of my bottles to auction shortly after it was released. Ended up not meeting the reserve and they were returned to me. I am thrilled those bottles did not sell now.

That was in 2009, when Costco was selling it for $200 per bottle, as the financial crisis knocked the wind out of the Bordeaux market, albeit temporarily.

[Jeff_Cassetta]

I had the '05 Brane Cantenac, Lagrange (375) and Branaire Ducru (375) tonight. The Lagrange was nice but still has some oak to resolve, which is normal for the house. The Branaire is still shut tight and needs at least another 5 years. The Brane Cantenac is a lovely wine and just approaching it’s “window”. Fantastic balance with no signs of the oak or alcohol that can show up in wines from the vintage. This was one of my fav @ the UdeG tasting on release and I’m very happy that I have another 23 in the cellar BTW, I initially had my hands on a 375 St. Emilion, but I just had no interest and searched for al alternative, which ended up as the Lagrange.

[Panos_Kakaviatos]

@Jeff Cassetta

I had the '05 Brane Cantenac, Lagrange (375) and Branaire Ducru (375) tonight. The Lagrange was nice but still has some oak to resolve, which is normal for the house. The Branaire is still shut tight and needs at least another 5 years. The Brane Cantenac is a lovely wine and just approaching it’s “window”. Fantastic balance with no signs of the oak or alcohol that can show up in wines from the vintage. This was one of my fav @ the UdeG tasting on release and I’m very happy that I have another 23 in the cellar BTW, I initially had my hands on a 375 St. Emilion, but I just had no interest and searched for al alternative, which ended up as the Lagrange.

Brane 2005 was so delicious en primeur. And it did have marvelous balance among the elements. I bought a six pack and have not touched a bottle yet. Thanks Jeff for confirming the promise from barrel at this stage.

[Blake_R_Maso]

Delete

[Blake_R_Maso]

Panos I’ve had branaire about 20 times the last two years from 375 and 750. Mins have been singing and are a screamin value… as is the 09… their second wine, duluc, in 10 also has been firing like a mofo… never had their 10 grand vin though somehow

[Matthew_Hemming]

Jancis’s notes are up if anyone’s interested.

[Jurgen_Steinke]

Anything new from her beside what we all know already?

[Gary_Ahearn]

@Gary Ahearn

Interesting. Especially the St. Emilion wines. Case in point: 2005 Troplong Mondot–the average score among the tasters was less than 15.5. Contrast that to the most recent scores on Cellartracker for the '05 Troplong Mondot: 100 (Jeff Leve, a month ago), then 96, 97, 98, 94. Was thinking about buying a bottle or two, but this report gives me pause.

And I see that Parker gave it 100 pts in Jun '15 and Galloni 98 pts in Nov '15. Odd. Anyone know what Neil Martin–who was at this tasting–had to say about this wine? Thanks.