BdB vs. BdN

WINE TALK
1

From someone who just started his journey into Champagne - I don’t understand why there is a distinction between Blanc de Blancs and Blanc de Noirs. Is it any more difficult to make one or the other? Is there a reason why they make a BdN?

2

Because some Champagne aficionados prefer Chardonnay, while others prefer Pinot.

3

Blanc de Blanc. White wine from white grapes - generally from Chardonnay.

Blanc de Noir. White wine from red grapes - generally, from Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier or both

Brut - often a blend of Chardonnay and one or both of the red grapes.

4

certain sites within champagne are better suited for chardonnay while others for pinot. ie look at clos du mesnil and clos d’ambonnay

5

Good blanc de noir often has another dimension of flavor, to my mind. And those with a heavy dose of pinot muenier can be distinct from those dominated by pinot noir, though it’s not usually my preference.

At the least, the BdNs are different from BdB, whatever your preferences are.

6

“Brut” doesn’t have anything to do with the varietal composition, it just refers to the dosage.

On the original question: the two styles are very different. Normally a wine made out of 100% Chardonnay is much lighter and delicate compared to a wine made out of 100% red varieties, which are often weightier and more burly in style. A young BdB’s color is often pale greenish-yellow whereas often even the most delicately made young BdN tends to be quite deep yellow-hued in color.

Also, wines made out of red varieties tend to be more prone to oxidation, so a BdN can come across somewhat nutty and toasty when it is relatively young, whereas a BdB can retain youthful, lemony-appley character easily for well over a decade.

Often BdN wines aren’t as long-lived as BdBs, but if you like developed Champagne, BdNs tend to show that developed character earlier, so they are better for shorter cellaring times. BdBs usually tend to take easily well over a decade before they start to feel “aged” and they tend to become more creamy, buttery and honeyed with age, whereas BdNs tend to become more toasty and nutty.

Of course these are just broad generalizations and there are lots of wines that prove exactly the opposite. Bollinger’s VVF is a ridiculously long-aged BdN and I’ve had som 100% Meunier BdNs that have come across as wines that fooled everyone into thinking they were BdBs. Many oak-aged BdBs can come across surprisingly BdN in style. Etc, etc.

7

YES!
[cheers.gif]

8

Because some soil types or terroirs in the broadest sense do better with Pinot Noir or Meunier or chardonnay, so winegrowers would tend to have more of one or the other grape variety. Or they might have both and so make a blend…

I would recommend to listen to the Levi Dalton podcast interview with Peter Liem on champagne: wealth of information on the fit between soil types and the varieties grown in different regions of champagne

9

You are correct by law, which is why I used the word “often.” But, in my experience, if a wine says Brut (which for the OP means it has less residual sugar than a wine that says Extra Dry or Dry) without saying Blanc de Blanc or Blanc de Noir it generally is a combination of white and red grapes. For some reason, you feel a need to be hyper-technical when the OP clearly said he was a beginner on Champagne and I was trying to give him general advice to get him started without having to quote exact laws.

Please go back and reread your post. Is what you say really what you want to tell “someone who just started his journey into Champagne” or are you just trying to show off what an expert you are?

10

I think this just serves to confuse a beginner. I wouldn’t say that having only “Brut” in the label without mention of “Bland de X” making the wine automatically a blend of different-colored graps as there are tons of wines out there that are Blanc de Blancs or Blanc de Noirs without explicitly saying so, having only a “Producer name” “Wine name” “Brut / Extra Brut / etc.” in the label.

IMO, it makes much more sense just to keep the sweetness designations and grape color designations separate and not make confusing and somewhat inaccurate generalizations. It’s always best to get the facts straight right from the beginning and not to underestimate people with excessive oversimplification.

11

Really? I mean, REALLY?

Brut = Containing less than 12 grams per liter of residual sugar. Not often, always.

A blend? Please go back and reread your post. Is what you say really what you want to tell “someone who just started his journey into Champagne” or are you just trying to show off what an ass you are?

12

Sorry to be a nitpicker, but that’s what I am. [oops.gif]

You’re confusing now Brut with Extra Brut. Brut = Containing less than 12 grams per liter of residual sugar (and with leeway of 3 g/l, making it possible to use it with wines up to 15 g/l. Extra Brut is 6 g/l with leeway of 3 g/l.

But thanks for helping me defending reason over vague generalizations! [basic-smile.gif]

13

I was responding to Howard. I should have typed 12gpl, when I got old I started to making stupid mistakes like that. [wink.gif]

14

Yes, I noticed. Hence, my thanks in my previous comment. [cheers.gif]

I just noticed you had made a small error there and I corrected it.

15

Lurking here. Thanks for the info, everybody.

16

Wow great thread. It’s funny I was just thinking this to myself as we drank a BdN a week or so ago, which was less expensive than the BdB, and I was wondering if there was some structural reason for that, or it was just a fluke.

Thanks for all the input everyone, even if it seems like some mild ire is being raised.

17

Jon,

This can be a pretty complicated topic, but I’ll try for a TL;DR.

Champagne has a lot of variations in terroirs. Some are more suitable for Chardonnay (the Cote de Blancs on the South side of the Marne, for example), others are more suitable for red grapes (the Vallée de la Marne can shine with Meunier in certain spots, and the Montagne de Reims is where Pinot Noir will usually be at its finest). With those generalizations, there are lots of regions that perform well with both colors.

Again, generally speaking, most widely available, commercial N-M (negociant/large house) Champagne will blend across regions and across the three major grapes. Smaller growers will obviously be less spread out in their holdings, so a grower based in the Cote de Blancs may bottle nothing but BdB. If you see a NV BdB or BdN from a larger house, its typically going to be a more “special” bottling than the workhorse NV - think Mumm Blanc de Blancs Cramant vs. Mumm Cordon Rouge.

I don’t think its easy to say one of the styles is better than the other - personally I usually lean towards BdB wines for their precision and minerality, but BdN wines from the Michels (Jose or Jean) or Mousse or the legendary Bollinger VVF are also stunning. Red grape Champagnes have an unmatched density and richness, while Chardonnay Champagnes have a beautiful brightness. They both have their place depending on the occasion.

If you want to get geeky about BdNS, comparison tastings between Champagnes that are pure Meunier, pure Pinot Noir, and a blend of the two can be quite interesting.

18

Thanks Jcoley. This was an very informative post.

19

Howard, as a lurker on this thread, I too thought the brut comment would be confusing to a champagne beginner. I understand you were trying to suggest that if it just says Brut instead of specifying, it’s probably a blend, but the way it was phrased suggested that brut was a designation for the blend. I see both Otto’s point and yours, but I thought Otto’s clarification was necessary, and planned to make it myself until I saw his posts.

As for the stylistic difference, I’d strongly suggest tasting through BdN and BdBs and see which one you prefer. I find that BdN carry a slight red fruit profile and perhaps some additional density but tend to prefer BdB which, with some age, develop a hint of yeasty toast, hazelnut, and honeysuckle that I think is just tremendous.

If you want to try some decent BdN, hit Egly-Ouriet, Jean Laurent, Gonet-Medeville, Philipponat, and Pehu-Simonet. All are reasonably affordable, and pretty nice examples.

If you want to try some BdB, well, I absolutely love Dom Ruinart but that’s expensive. Agrapart, Pierre Peters, U. Collin, Taittinger, Bruno Paillard, Gosset, and Billecart-Salmon.
Sorry about spelling on some of those, but most are reasonably easy to find, and reasonably inexpensive…well, most anyway.

20

Lots of good suggestions here. I think a good illustration of the difference is a bottle of Pierre Peters Cuvee Reserve and a bottle of H. Billiot. The former is BdB and the latter is BdN, and for me they each illustrate their styles well and are about the same price.