Barolo and Barbaresco vs. Burgundy

WINE TALK
41

Following this discussion, I think one’s answer to this question may depend on what kind of taster you are. I know I focus on structure, and I find the acid and aromatic angles of Burgundy and the Langhe nebbiolos have affinities (allowing for the difference in tannins).

If you focus more on fruit and other flavor profiles, you may be puzzled by the analogy.

And obviously if you drink the most devoted modernistos in Piedmont, whose wines tend to be inky and fruitier, then it will be even more baffling.

42

Agree. Also, I am thinking of mature wines when I think of this discussion. 1961, 1964, 1967, and maybe 1982 and 1985. I just haven’t drunk too many other older vintages to add more.

43

I’m just waiting for Tom Blach to chime in with Burgundy isn’t about fruit but about Burgundy! At which point they both become one and the like as Piemonte is about the tar and the roses, which are quite unique to them (on the whole).

Like with anything, shut your eyes and taste a Bruno Clavelier 09 Vosne Romanee of any ilk from barrel and you’d swear it were from Piemonte. The two regions have so many variations and differences within themselves and then the aromatics and they can’t help but be compared.

I think that take away the tannin and they can’t help but be compared… The French think of Piemonte as part of greater Burgundy perhaps, if that he true, the Italians will be thinking that Burgundy is part of greater Piemonte. :wink: [cheers.gif]

44

The convergence of Nebbiolo and Burgundy Pinot Noir is by no means assured, but it is possible to find very old Nebbioli that most would mistake for Burgundy. Gaja’s 1971 Barbaresco San Lorenzo is one that comes to mind. In that wine, the whiff of merde is there, but the sweet fruit and earth, truffle and floral qualities obscure the tar element, which is most often the telltale mark of Nebbiolo. Indeed, many of the 1971 Barolos and Barbarescos might make great Burgundy ringers, while few of the 1978s or 1989s would.

45

Jeremy,

If you have time, I would strongly suggest a visit to northern Piemonte, Sella in particular. The soils are quite different, the climate cooler, and the structure of the wines is therefore quite different from the Langa. It’s another aspect of Nebbiolo, and a very attractive one. Please email me if I can be helpful (I import Sella’s wines for my market).

I should add that I drink your wines often, and think of them as a model for elegant red wine.

46

Pinot from Burgundy or pretty much anywhere shows its brilliance, charm and seduction at almost any given age: barrel sample to adolescence, to matur-ing to fully mature. Nebbiolo based wines on the other hand, for this guy, only have that “thing” when they are almost always 20+ year old from classic vintages and 10-15 from more plus, ripe vintages.

below from an earlier post by me:

I love nebbiolo from trditionally minded producers. they trick you. what you see is not what you get. i like that. The wines even in their youth look amber, orange, brownish tinge (i.e. what one associates with tired, oxidized, light and boring), untill you stick you nose in the glass and more importantly take a sip. first timers are always BLOWN away by the amount of tannin and structure in a wine that its color warranted something more like an oxidative thin rose. This contrast gives me pleasure.

Secondly, i love wines that combine feminine and masculine qualities. what i mean by these two terms is perhaps subjective and different than how others see it. i love all the masculine aromas of tar, balsam, truffle, funk, earth… that is in harmondy with the feminine aromas of roses, perfume and pretty red fruits. this gives me lots of pleasure. to me these wines are perhaps the most complex wines in the whole world. Structurally I love the masculine tannins and acid but the feminine body and color.

thirdly, the variety and all the styles that can be made from this grape by different producers, not to mention the vast differences in taste and the nose of the wine from vintages like 97, 98 and 2003 compared to the more classic and cooler 99, 96, 95 ,93…

fourthly, i love how its such a tough grape to grow. early budding, late ripening. all the things that can go wrong in spring and fall. the challanges and what the producers have to go through to turn great wines. not to mention, th elack of success anywhere else in the world for growing this grape. cab and chard and… are grown anywhere and everywhere. BORING… but nebbiolo doesnt mess around, its loyal to its homeland and very very very few select parcels elsewhere, mostly still very close to its homeland.


finally, the freshness of these wines make them outstanding with food.

47

very true.

48

gamay of course but you knew that…

49

I think that Nebbiolo and Pinot Noir can be similar in flavor. Strawberry is a common flavor in both, undergrowth…Color is another clear similarity.

50

Another parallel is in many vintages:

1990: Big, ripe, very popular, though some devotees of the region regard it with suspicion
1994: Skip
1995: Tough but providing some pleasure now
1996: Tough, classic, needs decades of aging
1997: Diffuse; initially overrated by certain critics
1998: Not bad; underrated
1999: Outperformed positive early expectations
2000: Pleasing, for early consumption
2001: Very good, diehards particularly like
2003: Heatwave
2007: Difficult

Obviously the parallels don’t hold in 93, 02, 04, 05, 06. And I don’t have a good enough sense of either region after 2007.

51

I should add that in my blind-tasting experience older bottles of traditionally made Nebbiolo can have a striking similarity to Burgundy. Perhaps that’s because the tannins have resolved to some extent.

52

Yes I would include aromatics. Last week we popped a 71 Monprivato, 64 Gaunoux and 72 Clair Dau CSJ. No way would I confuse them. The Barolo was all roses, strawberry and tar.

Maybe some of the modern style Barolo resemble some northern Rhones in their youth. When the Neb. is filled with fruit still. Overall I consider nebbiolo a pretty unique grape.

53

08: very fresh and mineral.
09: ripe but lacking the structure of say 07.
10: wonderfully classic and structured but with crunchy fruit.

54

Nick, unique? yes, but this thread is about comparison and I feel there are more similarities than differences to Pinot Noir.

Modern producers may be Rhone like but generally I don’t think Piemonte compares to the Rhone at all.

55

I used to think the Northern Rhone was the analogy. That may be because in my early days of nebbiolo drinking in the 90s I was drinking the Marco de Grazia wines, all of which were very modern. I don’t make that connection now.

But perhaps that’s because the Northern Rhone has changed, and the wines tend to be riper, fruitier and lower in acid than they were before the 90s.

56

Yeah, Marco de Grazia, the Noël Verset and Marius Gentaz of Piemonte. [snort.gif] [cheers.gif]

That being said, to my palate, de Grazia’s producers were doing something very different in the late 1980s and the beginning of the 1990s from what they were doing by the mid-1990s.

But perhaps that’s because the Northern Rhone has changed, and the wines tend to be riper, fruitier and lower in acid than they were before the 90s.

There has been some global warming effect, but I think it largely depends on what producers you are drinking, i.e., it’s still possible, admittedly with some effort, to find wines from the Northern Rhône that resemble those that we (John and I) learned from.

57

The analogy to me was that those Baroli and the Rhones were both wines with a lot of tannin and acid and an inky color, plus a moderate amount of fruit.

58

Very different mouthfeel/tannins to me, and no new oak on the Gentaz/Verset line, although certainly on the Guigal branch.

59

Inky Nebbiolo is always a red flag for me. There have been rumors of blending exotic varieties, particularly in the '90s…

60

Just to be clear I was speaking of modern style Barolo producers like Sandrone, Scavino or Clerico. I should have also specified that I was referring to modern Rhone producers also. Overall I still contend that Nebbiolo is a unique grape. I think sometimes people over intellectualize subjects and think too much about things.