Barolo and Barbaresco vs. Burgundy

WINE TALK
21

Stuart – Your post reminds me of Burlotto, whose Monvigliero has a femininity and perfume that reminds me of Chambolle.

22

Great thread.

23

I’d add something but Jeremy’s post pretty much says it all. Nice effort.

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Absolutely nothing. I’d veer far to the left and never look back [cheers.gif]

26

I’d say that Carema and some Valtellina bottlings are more Burgundian but the similarities are more than the differences for B&B as well.

27

Don’t listen to these guys. They’re just trying to corner the market.

Frankly, I find folks who don’t get barolo/barbaresco a little suspect, which I can’t believe you are, antonio. When you sit with a glass of one of these wines and don’t even want to drink it because the nose is so beguiling, it’s hard to believe how anyone would not be blown away. I would certainly keep trying. Get some wines from the 90’s or before (most all of those from the 2000’s are too young except maybe 2000, which is mostly too ripe). Be sure to give the wines plenty of air (3-6 hours decant or double decant, or far longer slow ox).

28

Dear Jeremy, if someone could remove a few degrees of alcohol from some of the Barolo’s they would pose an intriguing wild card in a blind burgundy tasting.

It’s not even the alcohol. It’s the flavor profile. I’ve done a lot of blind tastings of Burgundy, Barolo/Barbaresco, Rioja, and Brunello because I find all four of them to have some similarities, unlike the Carmenet family of grapes with their herbs and unlike many of the Spanish/Rhone grapes, although Syrah can sometimes fall into the camp.

They have to have at least like 15 -20 years though. Young they’re easier to distinguish. But even with age, you can pretty much ID Pinot Noir as opposed to all those other grapes. Barolo/Barbaresco too, but the others get a mushroom/leathery quality with dried red fruits and they tend to be highly acidic and it turns out to be an interesting and enjoyable exercise. The PN picks up those aromas too, but always stands out as itself. At least in the tastings I’ve done.

29

For me this has it in a nutshell, (though the amount of protein in the light broth correctly used for risotto is negligible). As with all Italian wine it’s all about its place at the table. Generally speaking the robust tannins of Barolo and Barbaresco make an exciting combination with with the rich local food, and it is not necessary to age the wines very long for complete gastronomic pleasure, great as the joy of a fully mature bottle are. That’s when you need truffles, the two being far greater than the sum of their parts.

30

It’s a complex question, because the answer can be elusive if you don’t have a “guide.” If I had to distill the thread into a simpler answer, I’d say take a close clook at John Morris, Jeremy and Stuart’s excellent posts for a framework on how to approach appreciating the region. Then, see if you can source a Sottimano from a good vintage with some bottle age. Take your time enjoying it on a night when you can wrap your head around it and see if you “get it.” That’s my .02 on the preceding excellent posts. Hope it helps.

31

I’m very fond of both regions. They are very different wines, for the reasons that Jeremy has explicated. But for some reason they both hit about the same approximate pleasure sensor location in my brain.

Cheers,
Doug

32

Broadly speaking burgundies are more ethereal and show finesse whereas in Barolo and Barbaresco structure is the dominant feature. However, in both regions there is significant diversity as regards climats and producers so that the final product may may a lot from the norm.

I have always been tempted to put a aged Gaja or Giacosa in a blind line ups of Burgundies to see if anyone can spot the difference. I will do it in my wine group and report back…

33

Also if I could add to this conversation, is that Borolo more so than Barbaresco (but close) take an extremely long time to age and I believe that in itself is what drives people not to drink them young (hence less notes). Yes, Burgundy needs years but you can pop a bottle young and get fruit and nuance and figure out the wines trajectory. From my own experience I find tasting old school producers of Piedmont very difficult, often acidic, tannic or shrill and if you are not in tune with what the wines age into you can often write them off as nothing special.
With Burgundy it’s often different, yes the wines shut down, yes they age forever but often times they are easier to taste young, have appealing fruit in ripe vintages and often are more accessible to someone that doesn’t understand the region.

To me I understand what people are saying when they link the two wines, they both reflect place and sense of origin more so than Cabernet or Merlot (in many cases). Most mainstream grapes (cab, merlot) grow just about anywhere, they don’t often reflect place of origin or have originality (I know this is a blanket statement that deserves a greater explanation, I’m just to tired to give it now) or I should say that more often Pinot noir and Nebbiolo show more of a sense of place more often…

34

Jason, I think before the mid-80s, there was more in common with the “old school” Piemonte producers and the winemakers in Burgundy. But, after that, Burgundy made a conscious move to “progress” to more modern, clean wines. Other than Maume (and I lost touch after the '90s), I almost can’t think of a producer in Burgundy which strives for or accomplishes that “old style”, which , in Burgundy, was much less focused on hygeine and renewal of wood for their regimens, among other things. For varying reasons, there are many producers in Piemonte sticking to “old style” wines, while improving the hygeine, though keeping many other things Burgundy moved away from, ie, old oak, long macerations and cuvaisons, etc. Certainly, when tasting/comparing the “old style” Barolos and Barbarescos…and comparing them to Burgundies today…this has to be kept in mind, as the similarities are not there…and not just a matter of age, IMO.

This is not to opine on the “old” vs. “new” style divisions in PIemonte…other than to say that most domaines there I’ve visited and understand a bit about are more in the middle of that continuum, blurring the separation. But, it is clearly the “newer” styled PIemonte wines that can be aptly, IMO, compared to Burgundy, though…I’ve never been confused as to which was which, though I’ve tried.

35

Stuart, I’d compare Truchot to “traditional” winemakers in Piedmont.

36

Interesting point, Chae. Not sure that I’d agree…given the results. Jacky certainly practiced “primitive”, simple winemaking…in a good sense. But, he did use some new wood, and he also, I think, did so as he was more instinctual than reasoned in his practices. I think the “traditional”, “old style” winemakers in Piemonte today (and recently), though made conscious choices to make wines the way they do…at least the guys we know most about in that style. I do think Truchot-Martin’s methods are akin to some of the “traditional” winemakers I visited…who make wines “traditionally” less out of reasoned choice than because that’s what they know…are comfortable with…and have the means to do, though Jacky’s wines are certainly “better” than the products of that subset of “traditional” Piemontese winemakers that have fairly prmitive operations.

Thinking about it, I think the most apt comparison might be to Mauro (Giuseppe) Mascarello’s operation and wines…good quality…fairly primitive equipment…rather than some of the more rustic, “traditional” operations.

Interesting observation…thanks.

37

I understand the comparison of regions and lifestyles but the wines themselves have very different flavor profiles.

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[welldone.gif] Nick.

Stuart…for a while, I thought I was the only one…who [bleh.gif] [bleh.gif] [bleh.gif]

39

Wonderful discussion. I love Barolo and Burgundy. I haven’t been buying too many of the former lately, but enjoy quite a few aging in my cellar. Luckily patience will reward plenty. I have had many a “Burgundian” thought whilst enjoying some of the aged greats from Piedmont.

40

Nick…by “flavor”, I assume you also include “aromatics”?

Whehter you are right or wrong…probably neither…I guess one valid followup question is what else in the wine world…is closer to Burgundy than the nebbiolo based wines of Piemonte…and maybe some of the Barberas?..I guess some N. Rhone syrah can , at times, be a little comparable to Burgundy wines…I can’t think of a closer relative than Barolo/Barbaresco…can you?