Are Super Tuscans still cool?

[Monica_Larner]

The wines are very cool: Sassicaia, Flaccianello, Pergole Torte, Masseto, Tignanello ect.
The name “super Tuscan” is not. It sounds like something you’d pump into your gas tank.
Once upon a time, super Tuscan was supposed to denote the top of the quality pyramid. But as the term grew more popular, we started to see all kinds of blended red wines from Tuscan (some with Sangiovese, some without), at all price points (from $13 to $300) use the moniker. I remember tasting in Paso Robles once, and was asked by a tasting room employee: “would you like to taste our super Tuscan?” That’s when I lost it.
That proverbial quality pyramid has been so inflated, enlarged and bloated, there is no longer a quality pyramid to speak of. I’ve been writing about this a lot, starting back in 2004 when I penned an article entitled “Arrivederci Super Tuscan.” Today, I don’t use the term at all. In fact, I strive never to have those two adjoining words in the Wine Advocate - ever. I’ve been playing with “Tuscan Icons” instead.
Thanks for this thread. This is one of my favorite topics in Italian wine.
Best,
Monica

[Peter_Panzica]

The wines are very cool: Sassicaia, Flaccianello, Pergole Torte, Masseto, Tignanello ect.
The name “super Tuscan” is not. It sounds like something you’d pump into your gas tank.
Once upon a time, super Tuscan was supposed to denote the top of the quality pyramid. But as the term grew more popular, we started to see all kinds of blended red wines from Tuscan (some with Sangiovese, some without), at all price points (from $13 to $300) use the moniker. I remember tasting in Paso Robles once, and was asked by a tasting room employee: “would you like to taste our super Tuscan?” That’s when I lost it.
That proverbial quality pyramid has been so inflated, enlarged and bloated, there is no longer a quality pyramid to speak of. I’ve been writing about this a lot, starting back in 2004 when I penned an article entitled “Arrivederci Super Tuscan.” Today, I don’t use the term at all. In fact, I strive never to have those two adjoining words in the Wine Advocate - ever. I’ve been playing with “Tuscan Icons” instead.
Thanks for this thread. This is one of my favorite topics in Italian wine.
Best,
Monica

Yes Monica-Add Le Macchiole, Tua Rita, Ornellaia and I’d be happy to fill my cellar with these.

[Noah_C]

All the responses have been great! This is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping to start with the post. So thanks for all the contributions

… the uncool fashion of them may lead to some better values for your dollar than you find elsewhere.

Yes, Chris. This is exactly what I was asking about. Some of the bigger names are still quite expensive, so I wasn’t sure, but I was thinking that it might be possible to get some good values given that Super Tuscans have lost some cachet.

In my original post, I asked about distinguishing between the “Tuscan” STs and the “International” STs. What are some of your favorites in each category? In the “Tuscan” category, I’m hearing votes for Pergole Torte and Flaccianello. Does Tignanello count here since its 80% Sangiovese? What else? In the “International” category we have Sassicaia, Masseto, Tua Rita. Again, what else?

[Chris_Foley]

Biserno, loaded with Cab Franc, has a character similar to some Bdx.

[Andrew_A_r_n_t_f_i_e_l_d]

Masseto is the only real “cool” wine in this neighborhood, even though it is Merlot. There just are not that many places on earth outside of some dirt in Pomerol that can produce Merlot like this. The price is reflective of that, and is ridiculous of course.

I’ve seen Galatrona, Girolama, and Casalferro do well served blind against Pomerol (and ilk). And although not from Tuscany, Montiano has a decent history for quality merlot too.

Some of the IGT craze of the prior era may have also been rationale reactions to the Italian bureaucracy regarding wine. Has that situation improved enough that vintners are willing to return to that set of rules?

We did a blind Merlot dinner a number of years ago. As best as I can recall, this was the lineup:

1994 Petrus
1994 Pahlmeyer
1999 Falesco Montiano
1999 San Leonardo
2000 Troplong Mondot
2004 Poggio Scalette Piantonaia
xxxx Paloma
2006 Galatrona
xxxx Meroi Vigna Dominin

On that night, the Tuscan Piantonaia took WOTN by a wide margin. The Montiano was third, I believe. The Petrus (admittedly not a strong vintage) was seventh.

I don’t think anyone would question that in the right hands, Tuscany can do amazing things with non-indigenous varietals.

[Adam_Frisch]

This super tuscan is pretty cool.

[Dennis_Borczon]

Masseto is the only real “cool” wine in this neighborhood, even though it is Merlot. There just are not that many places on earth outside of some dirt in Pomerol that can produce Merlot like this. The price is reflective of that, and is ridiculous of course.

I was just about to ask if Masseto was considered a SuperTuscan (rhetorically) when I saw your post. A few years ago, at an LBTG dinner, Leo served a series of merlot flights, one of which included two Lafleurs and two second wines of Lafleur. Then there was a flight of SuperTuscan merlots. The Masseto blew away everything else. Not even close. I have had Petrus twice in the past two months and it was not on the same planet as the Masseto. In light of the discussion or Rayas, my SAT analogy would be Grenache is to Rayas as Merlot is to . . . Masseto.

If Masseto is not cool, then I will gladly give up my seat at the Cool Kids table.

Me too Jay! It is a really quite unique wine and I have tasted great vintages of Petrus ('82, '89,'90, '95 (maybe not the most classic) and '98). I would take Masseto any day. Can’t comment on Lafleur. Never had a crack at one.

[Markus_S]

I also find the idea of “native varieties” interesting. Merlot, for example, has been planted in Italy since at least the 19th century, maybe the 18th century, and it appears at least as a blending grape in many regions around Italy, including Chianti.

100, 200 years is still “not native”, just like coming from the Mayflower won’t make you a Native American.

[Vince_T]

Why do people think of Ornelleia’s new 2nd wine for Masseto, Massetino? Anyone tried it yet? As a Super Tuscan second, is it a second super Super Tuscan? Or perhaps a Tuscan “super second”? Or just a second-rate Super Tuscan? Hang on a second, my super is knocking at the door… oh he’s brought me some Tuscan soup… I’ve already had dinner, but it’ll make a super second supper!

[B_Beachy]

I also find the idea of “native varieties” interesting. Merlot, for example, has been planted in Italy since at least the 19th century, maybe the 18th century, and it appears at least as a blending grape in many regions around Italy, including Chianti.

100, 200 years is still “not native”, just like coming from the Mayflower won’t make you a Native American.

Maybe not native to Italy, but neither are tomatoes. There are just some things people adopt into their identity and others that aren’t so much, even if they are just as deserving.

[Monica_Larner]

Why do people think of Ornelleia’s new 2nd wine for Masseto, Massetino? Anyone tried it yet? As a Super Tuscan second, is it a second super Super Tuscan? Or perhaps a Tuscan “super second”? Or just a second-rate Super Tuscan? Hang on a second, my super is knocking at the door… oh he’s brought me some Tuscan soup… I’ve already had dinner, but it’ll make a super second supper!

Massetino is a vehicle for introducing Cabernet Franc to the program, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it one day in the big brother wine, Masseto.

[M_Meer]

[Dennis_Borczon]

Why do people think of Ornelleia’s new 2nd wine for Masseto, Massetino? Anyone tried it yet? As a Super Tuscan second, is it a second super Super Tuscan? Or perhaps a Tuscan “super second”? Or just a second-rate Super Tuscan? Hang on a second, my super is knocking at the door… oh he’s brought me some Tuscan soup… I’ve already had dinner, but it’ll make a super second supper!

Massetino is a vehicle for introducing Cabernet Franc to the program, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it one day in the big brother wine, Masseto.

That would be vandalism. To me like putting a bra on Venus Di Milo.

I know, I know, the feminists are sharpening their knives for me now…

[Chris_Seiber]

I also find the idea of “native varieties” interesting. Merlot, for example, has been planted in Italy since at least the 19th century, maybe the 18th century, and it appears at least as a blending grape in many regions around Italy, including Chianti.

100, 200 years is still “not native”, just like coming from the Mayflower won’t make you a Native American.

Native is an interesting concept, though, isn’t it? One group of people arrive somewhere at one time, the next group arrives a few centuries later, and the first one is “native” and entitled to be there forever to the exclusion of the next group.

Same thing with grape varieties.

[Peter_Petersen]

I’d recommend Montepeloso. They have a great range of wines and prices. Also they do age, great experiences recently with both 1994 and 2008 which I bought for less than recent bottles. Aged versions show considerable positive development.

[Chris_Foley]

I’d recommend Montepeloso. They have a great range of wines and prices. Also they do age, great experiences recently with both 1994 and 2008 which I bought for less than recent bottles. Aged versions show considerable positive development.

I’ve enjoyed a few bottles each of the 2012, '13, '14 Montepeloso A Quo, most recently a bottle of the 2014 last April. The blend is very non traditional, including both Sangiovese and Cabernet as well as several other grapes.