How do you guys think 2015 fits in with this schematic?
I don’t know whether or not ‘15 was/has been criticized for being too ripe, just curious to hear your thoughts on how they were on release and where they might be heading. I bought a ‘fair bit’ of 2015 and actually it’s the last red burg vintage i purchased due to pricing getting too stoopid for me to bear…
Great point.
2003 was really hot and imbalanced for many wines, but in recent years have had some bottles that showed well. Admittedly limited sample from top producers, but even several top producers were concerning when young.
I also bought a fair it of 2015. It is also the last red burg vintage which I purchased multiple bottles of the g-curs - red Corton as any other g-cru were too pricey.
I was given to understand that many producers adjusted from their experienced with 2005 red. Hope my guess is right … 
Steve,
First off, welcome to the forums. It looks like you have just crossed into double digits for your posts here. I have seen some wines settle a bit over time, but I’m talking 10-15+ years. So I’d suggest patience rather than trading or selling the wines off. For me, Burgundy is most often about having patience in the cellar. There are going to be some vintages that are tough, but like others have noted, I think there can be some beautiful wines with enough time in the cellar.
I’ll be Debby Downer here re: 2003. This past weekend I opened a 2003 Domaine Tollot-Beaut Corton-Bressandes and it was decidedly solar. Raisins and prunes and not very pleasant. Grainy and single note could be more producer than vintage. I love the Tollot-Beaut 2017 Chorey-les-Beaune and loaded up on that however.
Also, I like 2018 and have purchased a bunch. The ones I’ve sampled haven’t been jammy or ott.
Sounds like a whole lotta folks in the AFWE are gonna owe Robert Parker a great big apology.
I have not had or bought any 2018s. I like 2017 a good bit. I think it is comparable to 2001.
Agreed. I would say stick to your favorite producers in young, jammy Burgs. A lot of the reason I have had good 2003s is that the ones I have been drinking were mostly Truchots (the only producer I bought from the vintage) with a smathering of Mugneret-Gibourg.
I sometimes wonder if it would be best to go against type in buying producers for a vintage. For example, in a vintage like 2018, buy producers who make very structured wines (e.g., Chandon de Briailles) and in a vintage that is more structured like 2008 buy wines from producers that generally get richness in their wines. But, I have never really looked methodically as to whether this works out ultimately.
I remember when Parker was taking heat for supporting ripe Bordeaux, he would sometimes say that when testing was done on dry tannin extract there was no deficit of tannins. They just were not the green, austere tannins of the past.
Howard, you have more experience with Burgs than I do. I’m wondering what your thoughts are on 2014 vs. 2017? I think these are the two I prefer the most in the 2013-2017 five year span. I think the 2015’s will take a bit more time as they seem more coiled and unyielding, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on the differences between 2014 & 2017 from your perspective if you’ve got the time.
It’s odd to see people respond to a question about four specific wines from three separate vintages with things like “yes - 2003 and 2009”. My hunch is that the mugnier will turn out fine, and that the ‘16 is likely to be great, although I haven’t opened an ‘18 yet. I don’t have enough experience with the other producers to form a view on their wines, but hold onto the mugnier. It’s worth it.
As for the vintages, 2003 is to me the most inconsistent, even across producers. The wines that are bad are really bad, and some are not just roasted, but almost roasted and green at the same time, like a steak that got seared on the outside and left raw in the middle. It’s as if the sun cooked the skin before the rest was ripe. I’m sure some have turned out fine, but I wouldn’t seek them out and wouldn’t buy them expecting much without checking notes.
I’ve always found ‘09s to generally lack a bit of acidity. There are some good wines, but I still don’t think it’s met the criteria of a truly great vintage. The one after was better.
‘15 seems pretty promising to me, as does ‘19. ‘20 looks to be exceptional. I’m not sure about ‘16 and ‘18 to me as the seem like stylistic outliers, but they definitely don’t strike me as dire the way the ‘03s did on release and I’m happy enough to own both vintages.
I would say …2003 and 2009…could be described as jammy, no ?
I agree that 2009 is not a great vintage.
I had somewhat written off 2018 as overly ripe and jammy, but I had a bottle of Denis Mortet Lavaux St Jacques recently and it’s somewhat convinced me that some of the wines have hope and can develop into nice aged burgundies in 10 - 20 years
This isn’t about Parker, who hasn’t reviewed Burgundy since, what, the '93s? (He was proven wrong on '93, and other things, but right about much else - his favorite Burgundies were Leroy, and I’ve never seen anyone turn down a glass of Leroy.)
Probably not copyrightable, but you might have been able to register it as a service market if you’d acted soon.
On release, I thought of many 03s as pruney. I thought the ‘09s were slightly cloying in that they didn’t have enough acid to balance out the sweetness of fruit, but not jammy.
Alex…interesting and sophisticated words : pruney and * slighly cloying*…merci.
Not sure that the reds ultimately will be that much different. I have a gut feeling that the 2017s will be a tiny bit better, but I could be wrong. I think every vintage from 2014-2017 will be quite good. I have more 2014s than 2017s because the 2014s were cheaper and because as I have gotten older I have cut back on wine buying.
I’ve had a 16 Mugnier Marechale and didn’t find it jammy. I have no concerns about 2016 in general, which I think is the best red vintage since 2010 and the second best this century.
I’ve not had the other wines. From tasting 18s and 19s, I’ve generally found 2018 riper than I like (and one winemaker compared it directly to 2003) and I think 2019 is good but heterogeneous. It is also by no means lean - there will be ripe wines. Certainly drinking 1er crus this early may contribute to the sense of ripeness - they’re likely to have more oak and extraction this young. The village 19s I’ve had from producers I usually buy haven’t exhibited this issue.
As far as the comparison to 2003…that would be bad, certainly, but I don’t think 2018 is that bad, even if I’m not a big fan.
Also, I agree there are some good wines from 2003 (as there are in any vintage), but that argument reminds me of the “don’t count out 2004 because LaTache is good” view. Forest vs trees.
You’re commenting on 2004 & 2007…but I asked about 2014 & 2017. Did you stop buying?