Before I ask this question it needs to known that I understand I might well be contradicting other things ive posted or thought in the past but to me that is what wine drinking is all about. This whole thread is about young wines yet im looking for aged wines on CC so instant conflict !!
So I restarted wine drinking around the 08/09 vintages. I have been drinking a few and keeping a few of various wines since.
What im now seeing as a trend is that wines I drank young that really impressed me with full upfront flavor after a couple of years of cellaring are just not drinking anywhere near the same. After 2-3 years that youthful energy has mellowed out, there is less in your face flavor but more integration. My question is that I just flat out don’t enjoy the wines as much after they age and is it that these wines are going into a closed phase where everything sort of hides or is this just the expected aging process, I read about Bordeaux wines doing this then coming back but im not sure if this is the same thing. I bought a few of the 2009 Denner Mother of Exile cabs, Ones drunk 2-3 years were vibrant juicy cabs, I had the same bottle last night and it was good but nowhere near the juiciness of what I recall it was a nice wine but did not float my boat as I recalled and this bottling was one I had been saving for a special occasion to open with a fond memory.
When I buy wine I cellar most but then buy an extra bottle to pop, ive done this with recent wines like a 12 Saxum JBV and 13 Bedrock Oakville both wines that would be considered baby killing yet I really really enjoyed them. The Oakville particularly was a wonderful explosion of all sorts of flavours and textures, this I think being the effect of all sorts of grapes. Yet on the other hand I popped a 12 Becklyn cab that others enjoyed young and found it very closed.
I know ive posted this question in several different threads in various formats but it really is confusing me, is it ok to drink wine young, way before any of the more knowledgeable people say its ready. Even the wine makers like Morgan and Mike O suggest drinking windows way way past the age I enjoy their wines and these guys make it so why don’t I agree ? I am not deliberately trying to be different, its just how I perceive wines. Of course their are exceptions like the group of 07 Saxums I traded for that are fantastic now, the thing is though I don’t know what these were like in 10, it could well be that they were even more explosive and that I would feel the same way about them if Id had the chance to experience the development.
Looking for help to finally just understand what im doing here, is it OK to drink all my wine young or will I one day live to regret it ? the thing about letting it get old is that ive not had one wine yet ( that I recall ) that ive cellared that has been more impressive to me with age then without it. Just losing the fruit to me is the huge negative, Its like I prefer that youthful explosiveness even if the wine is still rough around the edges. I keep asking this question because its so hard to go against all conventional thinking, im not trying to be different it just seems that I am. I read so many reviews about how well a wine has developed and become integrated yet the overriding sensation for me is always where did the fruit go. Am I just a simple wine drinker who cant understand that the aged integrated wine is better because everyone say it is despite what I taste ? If that’s the case then I am fine with it, I just want to fully understand what im doing.
At least with Burgundy, IMO, a red wine’s adolescence…maybe from 5-12/13 years old is the worst time to experience them. They are, like adolescent humans, in an awkward stage that only points to how they will emerge in a vague way.
Whether you’ll like what emerges is something I can’t answer; I generally do with Burgundy…and with kids I’ve known. It would probably be a good idea to buy some older ie, over 15 or 20 years old to see what you think of the “integration” (which I usually call “harmony”) from age. Why leave that issue to chance and gambling!
It is my opinion, FWIW, that the reason certain wines cost a high premium is for their aging potential. If you’re lucky and don’t like that “potential” when realized…you probably don’t need to spend that premium in the first place. Depending on your perspective, that could be a lucky thing.
It always pays off to understand one’s own goals and tastes…as early as possible, I think. I did, by happenstance…and I’m glad I did so “early” , so I could try to realize those goals in time.
young wine with exuberant fruit is easier to appreciate and understand than aged wine. As you gain experience you will appreciate aged wine more. So cellar some. If you don’t like it, sell it for lots more young wine. You wil regret not aging some.
First – is it ok to like young wines when other people like them aged? Answer: YES! You should absolutely not worry one second about this. One of the hard/fun things about wine is actually figuring out what you like. If you have made progress there, then you’re in great shape. Buy what you like, drink it when you like it, and enjoy it. There is no simpler truth to wine.
Second – are there aged wines you’ll like and how will you know? Answer: buy some aged wines and try them! Or hang out with people that have some and do wine dinners with them. There are tons of aged wines available in the market, so experimentation is easy (although can be pricey depending on what you want to try).
The how will you know part is both easy and hard. With review sites, this site, cellar tracker, and tons of other content, you can read about wines of all different types and ages. Find people you agree with and try things.
I’m no huge expert either Alan, but I am trying to fix that by drinking a wide variety of ages/types of wine and learning. One thing that is 100% clear is that taste is unbelievably individual – every single wine has both lovers and haters. So what I’m trying to do is understand my own taste, and then try to figure out who is similar enough that I can find their opinions useful. This is especially helpful for the “should I drink this bottle of wine now or wait” question.
Oh and one more thing – different wines age differently. Massively. Some will NEVER become great aged wine … they will just fade and die. And this is 95+% of wine produced – most is made to drink right away.
But some will age well. There are wines will flat out suck for 10, 15 or 20 years and then finally begin to transform into something yummy. Not super hard to predict with all the info out there.
What Stuart and Alan said is true not just about Burgundy. In their early years, many wines can show as exuberant and fruity – even “stern” wines like classical Bordeaux, Burgundy, Northern Rhone and Barolo, but particularly New World wines like the ones you’ve been sampling. If they taste good young, don’t feel guilty for drinking them.
Most wines lose a lot of that primary fruit after a couple of years. Some wines (particularly those with a good dose of acid and tannin) over time take on more complexity and gain other dimensions (what Alan refers to). A lot of us live for those wines when they’re mature. In the new world, you’re more likely to get that evolution with cabernet wines. The odds are longer with other grapes in the New World in most cases, I find, though some pinots and syrahs do get more complex. (It’s also been true of some lesser Northern Rhone syrahs I’ve been drinking of late, which were juicy and irresistable young and a bit flat after a few years.)
A lot of more fruit-forward ones often don’t gain any secondary dimension with age. So if those are the wines you like, it may be pointless to cellar them for decades. Guzzle them when they’re chuggable.
You seem to assume we were paying attention to what you said.
Some might say, “consider yourself lucky”! If you like them young, drink them young. Nobody will fault you.
I am curious, though, have you ever opened and followed a mature bottle of wine of any kind? You made a comment about the Saxum and Bedrock showing an explosion of flavors and textures. While I can appreciate young wines, too, wines meant to mature, and matured well, are at a different level in terms of what gratification they provide. While there might not be an explosion of anything, the layers and textures of the wine are so much more interesting and complex, the flavor profile can span the spectrum and in many wines, all are well delineated. You perhaps have heard the notion that quality wines matured well can develop ancillary and tertiary characteristics. That’s what many of us seek. Get me past the fruit, into the dirt, rock, soil, etc.
You should try a mature Bordeaux, since it appears you enjoy Cabs, or some great Cabs from the '91-'94 vintage. Dalla Valle is stunning. The 1982, 1989 and 1990 vintages in Bordeaux are fantastic and drink very well right now. With a little looking, you can find a mature Bordeaux for about the price of that Saxum. For example, Chambers has the '89 Ch. Olivier and the '90 La Louviere both for $90. I’ve had both many times, when young, during development, and some recently as well. These are solid 90-91 point wines, but IMHO much better than a spanking brand new Bordeaux with a 96+ rating, as they have fully evolved.
I’m in the camp that says drink them young or drink them old but don’t drink them in between.
Of course (especially with Burgundy) some wines can go in and out of close phases.
I also say this with the caveat that I’ve never had aged examples of the wines you mention so I don’t know how well they behave with time. I’m personally skeptical about Saxum.
I know ive posted this question in several different threads in various formats but it really is confusing me, is it ok to drink wine young, way before any of the more knowledgeable people say its ready.
Why are you asking if it’s OK? What do you think we will do to you if you drink them before we tell you to? What if we said it is not OK?
Of course it’s OK. People eat some food that would make others puke. That’s OK too. Just don’t make me eat it!
The advice above is good. Go out and buy a few bottles of an older wine. That’s NOT a wine that’s five or ten years old. Buy something that’s 25 years old. Open it up and see if you like it. It’s going to be very different than it was when young. All those primary fruit flavors are likely to have receded or disappeared. If you’re lucky, the wine turned into something more interesting and better. If you’re not lucky, well, you’re not lucky.
When you read about how a wine has developed, or how it has many years of life ahead, or how it shouldn’t be touched for another ten years, the best thing to do is pretty much ignore that. There are a few posters on this board for example, like Jay and John above, who like older wines and have had many at different stages of a wine’s development. I tend to pay attention to what they say. But they’re not you. So unless you have similar preferences, you may not like the same wines they do. That’s OK. And then there are other, more prolific posters, who know much less but who talk about how a wine that’s 10 years old is mature and just where it should be, etc.
So to sum:
Yes it’s OK to drink wines young. Some people like Riesling and CdP with age. I prefer them young.
Not all wines will age. Some might hold on to their youth longer than others, some might just crap out. It depends on the grapes, the winemaking, the storage, i.e. many things.
Not everyone knows what they’re talking about anyway.
Wow. This is a big psychological zeitgeist of the day. I don’t know where to begin, but others have answered well already. Wine drinking shouldn’t be stressful, and I wouldn’t worry what others think (of course, if you are trying to fit in at your law firm and want to make partner, then you might have to suck up and tolerate something you don’t care for). But let’s say you DO like wines young. No harm in that. Many people do. But in some ways, it seems a waste (to me) to drink something out of the gate that has a 30 year shelf life. I can see if you are learning you need to drink young wines to find out if you actually like something enough to buy and cellar it, but at some point, if you want to appreciate wines with more nuance, you will want to age something beyond the first year or two of it’s existence.
I would consider changing this policy. Drink most when you know you’ll love them. Stick only a couple away.
I suspect your tastes will change over time. Most of ours have. But who knows how? Just because many of us grew to appreciate older, subtler wines, doesn’t mean you will. It would suck to have a cellar full of great Saxums and think, “these were so much better in their first three years.”
And by all means, keep experimenting and learning.
Less stress, more joy. Like what you drink, drink what you like.
Good thoughts being posted but here is another aspect of this.
The oldest wine ive drunk was a 1964 Charles Krug cab, a birth year wine and it was undrinkable this was a little disappointing as several reviews online had it still showing life.
So where are the windows ? for say Cali syrah what are the fiven stages, I understand these will change between wines but have to start somewhere
Young and fresh,1-2 years
Shut down middle phase, 2-7 years
Prime drinking for a mature but still lively wine 7-12 years
Fully aged and integrated, 12 +
Past it 20-25 and on
So where are the windows ? for say Cali syrah what are the fiven stages, I understand these will change between wines but have to start somewhere
Young and fresh,1-2 years
Shut down middle phase, 2-7 years
Prime drinking for a mature but still lively wine 7-12 years
Fully aged and integrated, 12 +
Past it 20-25 and on
These sound reasonable ?
Again - it depends on the wine. Prime for a mature but still lively wine is 7 to 12 years? If that’s mature, then you probably should have had the wine earlier.
And not all wines “shut down” either.
There’s a lot of Syrah in CA. And people are experimenting all over the place. So it’s a really exciting time to be drinking Syrah from CA, but nobody can tell you with any certainty that there’s a particular aging curve for it - the grape is grown in really hot regions, pretty cool regions, and it’s made in many styles.
Don’t overthink it. Just drink the wine when you like it. If you stop liking it young, keep it until it’s older.
In any event, what Napa cabs from the 60s are drinking well? From what I gather, even the great Mondavis of the early 70s are mostly past it. Some friends and I got some 70 BV Reserve from the winery a couple of years ago and most of those have been past their prime. That’s pushing it for California cab, though lots of top Bordeaux from that period are great.
Yes, I recently had an 01 Edmunds St. John Wylie-Fenaughty syrah that was at a beautiful moment, with lush fruit but many years ahead. An 05 E St J Parmalee Hill not long after that was really fruity and didn’t seen to need any more time. A 2004 Copain Madder Lake syrah in the same period was tight as a fist and needed several more years, at the least, to open up. So it’s hard to draw any rules.
These are all relatively restrained wines. Your experience with riper, richer syrahs might be completely different.
'74 Mondavi Reserve Cab is drinking well as are the '74 & '68 Charles Krug Cabs . I have enjoyed these 3 over the last 8 months and they were very good.
It certainly is a function of vintage, storage conditions and bottle variation , though, amongst others.
This sounds like a pretty easy thing; You like young wine but not aged, no biggie, pop and pour and enjoy.
What you’re describing really has nothing to do with being ‘shut down’, you just like a fuller, fruit forward attack with your wines, again nothing wrong with that.
For me, I enjoy wines with age, I enjoy mellow integrated flavors, I like more than just fruit and spice so I allow my wines to age to allow those flavors to integrate. To me wines with age show more depth and complexity, they show more of what they are instead of just primary flavors.
Often times the style of wines you are describing don’t age into what you are expecting, big fruity wines don’t often keep that big and fruity-ness, they tend to drop that fruit and flash and show more secondary characteristics which doesn’t sound like your cup of tea.
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