What sounds like a hypothetical question and thread title is actually a genuine situation I will soon be facing.
I’ve built a sensible (depending on who you ask) size wine cellar here in Canada. Perusing through CellarTracker, I was happy to find that outside of 10 to 12 bottles, everything I own I am really looking forward to drink over the coming years. I also have some birth year wines for my sons (more than I expected). All of this is somewhat conveniently stored in two off sites in ideal conditions.
And now, the twist. We are moving to France (a few kilometers to Geneva). I will be a mere stone’s throw away from the Jura. Driving, I will hit La Côte in 40 minutes, Mâcon and Lavaux in 90, Beaune or Lyon in less than 2 hours.
I don’t think I’ll be bringing my cellar along. I’ve already purchased these (mostly French) wines at way above the local price. You’ve heard us Canucks complain about the SAQ and LCBO. If you factor that I would need to ship and pay VAT on those wines once more, I don’t feel like it. At least, not now. Maybe in a few years. Time will tell. In the meantime, I’ll drink and share some when I fly back to Canada to see the friends and family and will probably bring back as many ready to drink bottles as I’m allowed when flying back. There’s also the Scotch, Bourbon and other spirits that will have to find a way to follow me back to France bottle by bottle (actually more like six at a time if I remember).
So I guess in a few years, I’ll be able to compare my Canadian and French wine cellars. Will I still be able to find my South African darlings in France? Will I start cellaring Swiss wines? Will Jura reds start to find their way on my table and in my cellar? Will I still be able to get my hands on Allemand, Dujac, Fourrier, Rougeard and others? Will I be less “enthusiastic” about rebuilding a cellar now that I’ve done it once? Will my white Burgundy in Canada begin to oxidize and push me to ship them to France?
What a wonderful problem to have. Congratulations on the move! I tell my wife that when we retire, it’ll be to Portugal. I never considered the “problems” that could cause…
Congratulations on a grand new adventure. I’ve been living in Germany for the last 10 years and have loved my European adventure. One of my favorite things about living here is pretty much anything you want to drink is available for order on the internet and can be shipped to your front door. Spirits, wine, whatever, doesn’t matter. Also pretty amazing how you can find well aged examples of all kinds of things still shipped to your front door. You’re gonna have a great time!
Sounds like a really exciting opportunity you are grasping. I visit France just about every year and see many similar wines on both sides of the channel. I keep going back for the variety however. For every wine that makes it to the UK there are another 20 where the producer lacks the scale, contacts, resources or will to export. Many of these are at the Cru Bourgeois level or from more obscure areas like the Challonaise. They may not last as long as grander wines but I hope you have huge fun getting to know them all.
That is going to be a huge difference from what we can find here. Considering that there is no secondary market for wines in Quebec, finding aged “anything” requires you to know someone who has it and is willing to share or pay an exorbitant price at the monopoly sanctioned auction.
Absolutely. Finding producers that are unknown to me will be one of the joys of being closer to the vineyards.
Paperwork is going to be less hectic than some since all four of us are already French citizens but still… it remains France. I’ll definitely holler if I’m lost in the Daedalus maze of administrative forms. But more importantly, I’ll try to find some time to swing by Bordeaux and visit your gallery!
Phil, this sounds pretty darn exciting. I assume that you and your family are very much looking forward to the move, despite the possible wine “issues”. I envy you, and wish you all the best on this new stage of your lives.
As others have said, your choices will be endless. There must be tons of under the radar producers in the Jura, Switzerland, etc, which you’ll be able to get your hands on. All European wines will easily make it to your front door. For what it’s worth, the entire Portuguese market is now open to you since all of the great retailers here ship in Europe, and that is a sea of mature wine (check out the Lisbon Wine Shops thread) and terrific small production wines which can easily find its way to you.
Unless you plan to return to Canada for substantial periods of time, you might consider bearing down and paying the expense of moving your cellar. I doubt you will be able to replace the wines you have ,except in current vintages, with any ease and it would be a shame to lose access to a cellar full of wines that you say you are looking forward to drinking. When there isn’t a pandemic, and maybe soon again, I spend about five months a year in France and, while I have access to wonderful wines, I do miss the more mature wines I have in my cellar in the US.
That was my reaction as well. In the scheme of everything, I doubt the cost of sending your wines (or at least the portion of them you care about owning) with you to France is a significant item. You might at least test your assumptions about how much you can send over and how much duty you might pay, which sound overly conservative as you describe them.
But, you did say you simply don’t feel like doing it, and if you have the luxury of leaving those behind and buying a bunch of new things in France and are excited about starting over, then that’s totally your choice.
I greatly enjoyed keeping a cellar in the US and another in Europe. The burgs I loved were and still are way cheaper in Europe, and many other wines were cheaper in the states. It lead to an ongoing pseudo arbitrage experience, with me buying in both markets, and realigning cellars 6-12 bottles at a time with my frequent travel. It was good fun.
I only ever had one bottle break, though it was a Giacosa red label.
One fringe benefit of moving away for, say, ten years, is that you will keep your hands off of your precious bottles while they age properly.
The big question is is your move likely permanent? If not, enjoy the game! If so, maybe follow the advice of Jonathan above.
I suppose moving the cellar or not depends on how long you expect to be in France for. If it’s probably only for a few years, it’ll be a good way of keeping your mits off the wine! In any case, you will be able to get all the wines you like over here, for a lot less. Like every wine-producing country, I imagine, there are lots of really cheap wines which suffer from price hikes due to transport costs when exported, so you’ll have fun discovering lots of new stuff at 5 euros a bottle or less!
It’s tough to say if it’s permanent but the only thing that we are leaving behind in Canada are the wines! I totally agree that I will reconsider as time goes by. The good thing about wine is that you can take your time to make the call. We’ll see in a couple of years.
But knowing that I have all of these bottles in Canada and considering the investment, I wonder if I will be as Gung Ho to accumulate bottles in France. Probably. Especially considering that I will have access to more wine and at better pricing. It’ll probably be a buying frenzy once we are established but we’ll see. I’ll also be able to visit wineries that are dear to me and that I am really looking forward to.
Was just thinking about this myself, but substitute Italy for France. We’re making retirement plans and there’s a decent chance that we’ll wind up in Italy. My cellar is about 600 bottles, and it’s about 40% Ital, 40% California, with France a distant 3rd. Do I haul Barolo, Barbaresco and Brunello to Italy? Do I stop buying them here, knowing that I’ll likely move before they hit readiness? We’re going to Italy this fall to do some scouting, and, though I am already familiar with the wine culture in parts of the country, checking out access (esp where we would likely live) will be part of the trip.
Phil, similarities are that we moved to the other side of the pond, we left our collection behind, and we like exploring.
My US collection is primarily Oregon Pinot with a smattering of Cali wines with old-world sensibilities. I may bring them over at some point but like you I have no desire right now to pay the VAT for a bunch of stuff that won’t be drunk for decades.
When I’m back in Chicago I usually swing by my locker with a couple VinGardeValises and grab whatever is nearing maturity and has me feeling sentimental. But I’ve been much more focused on exploring Europe than revisiting my or favourites.
Good luck on your move. Having your wine on both sides of the pond does present some logistical challenges, but if that’s the biggest problem you have you’re living life right!!!
Has anyone done a price comparison between the cost of storage for, say, two years, and the cost of shipping with VAT? Is the second really more expensive?
I haven’t looked at the exact amounts (I’ll call the Douanes when I’m there to learn about it) but from what I could tell it’s TVA (20%) + some duties + shipping + insurance. So let’s say you have a 200$ bottle of wine, you’re looking at 40$++. That’s a number of years of storage. Obviously, as the price point changes so does the result. There is also the risk of damaging the wine in transit (temperature extremes, variation, breakage). As mentioned, well get settled without the bottles. If it turns out in a few years that I miss them to much, I’ll get them shipped. In the meantime, everybody that comes to visit might have the responsibility to bring me some bottles in exchange for full service lodging.
Storage for two years wouldn’t come anywhere near VAT. VAT in the UK is 20%. My US costs are quite high; roughly $3/bottle. Any comparison in my case would also have to factor in offsite storage in the UK as well since I ‘only’ have room in my house for about 500 bottles. Besides if I built room in-house to store the wines I’d then need to factor that into the cost comparison.
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