Allemand v. Chave San Francisco - notes and thoughts

[R_Frankel]

Thought this should go here. Enjoy.

Allemand v. Chave

Sept. 29

Kitchen Istanbul, San Francisco

The first of the battles of the heavy weights of the N. Rhône took place last night. We gathered at Kitchen Istanbul. Perhaps not the most intuitive choice, this turned out to be an excellent match for the wines. The food was well flavored but leaning more towards mediterranean flavors than spicy ones, thoughtfully organized by the clearly wine-loving owner. The grand finale of lamb chops was ascendant, and a perfect match for the more aged bottles. A delicious restaurant that I will be revisiting. Anyway, on to the wines. My notes are admittedly spotty, but I’m a wine lover not a reporter. I’m sure others will have more to say, and explain how wrong I am about everything ;).

TLDR: This is not a fight with a winner. Forget the “versus”. Chave, Allemand is clearly a YES, AND pairing. Perhaps the older Chaves have a better track record of long term development, but when we compare 2012/15/16 etc. in a decade I bet Allemand will do very well indeed. And yet these wines are consistently different. Read below for details, but I’m glad I have both in my cellar.

Dom Perignon 2002. A joyful welcoming bubbly, to my palate this was solidly open and ready, showing some secondary development, especially over the course of the evening. Utterly classy, with lots of brioche, lemon, herbs, and a touch of coffee starting to appear. The palate was nicely rich, with more of those flavors, and a long tart expanding finish. A fine mousse that held up surprisingly well over the evening, though really there was just a sip at the end. I haven’t had a lot of reasonably aged Dom and last night I really got how this can develop into something lovely. 94, with room to grow.

Flight 1: A few whites with appetizers. All PnP.

2016 Labet Chardonnay En Chalasse. Herbal lemons on the nose with a fairly structured palate. A little reduced, and slight palate funk. Young. Not so far off other French chards. I haven’t had a lot Jura chardonnays, so I was expecting something more funky from the Labet. Instead what we got was a slightly funky French chardonnay, with a lot more structure than I’m used to finding. Not my favorite style, but not offensive either. 90

2016 Anne Boisson Meursault Sous La Velle. A very pretty Meursault that really opened up over the course of the evening, though I mostly sampled it with the appetizers. Seemed very Meursault to me, with lemon, herbs and hazelnut on the nose. The palate had good density but seemed a bit closed. Fine long finish, peppery notes emerging over the course of the night. Quite good, with more upside potential. 91

2018 Walter Scott Chardonnay Cuvée Anne. Gunshot reduction on the nose, lots of lemon. Nice, but shown up tonight by the other whites. 90

2005 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage Blanc. Fairly delicate and restrained in a beautiful way, extremely well balanced and tasty. Less a punch in the face than I’m used to with other Rhône whites, but instead showy and pretty. Very nutty nose, herbal, lemon, sage. Lovely silky - almost waxy - mouthfeel, more on the herbal side with a long high energy finish. I’m guessing would be better still with food. Age has turned this into a really graceful well-balanced creature. Impeccable. 93

Flight 2: 2006 and 2012. Those with more experience of the wines thought that these two vintages would be interesting to compare, as (relatively) not so different, especially compared to some other vintages we were tasting. These bottles were all double decanted for 1.5 - 3 hours before the meal.

2012 Allemand Reynard . Fireworks on the nose. Spectactular. Started off with violets, violets, red fruit, hints of maybe allspice or cinnamon, and then more violets. Over the course of the evening the nose was a constantly evolving and changing dynamo, leaning fruity, herbal, occasionally revealing some olive tapenade. The palate was more steady, plenty open with some mid-weight red fruit, a little tapenade, long well-balanced finish. Very dry, but with good presence throughout entry, middle and finish. Really a very good wine. 95

2012 JL Chave Hermitage . Different tones, but no less vinous poetry. The nose was more on the red fruit, tapenade, meatier side of things, flashing some floral notes but then showing more bass. But the palate really showed fantastically, deep and classy. Mid-weight, but stunningly intense. Long long finish, weirdly to me a finish that I wanted to just sit and enjoy as it reverberated in my mouth long after I put the glass down. Great balance. Just a fantastic wine, that pepped up even more with the appetizers. 96

2006 Allemand Reynard . Brother to the 2012, again what a riveting nose. Definitely leaning more into the olive, french country herbs side of things, but still with flashes of lavender, violets and roses. The palate was also more savory, oh so elegant and enjoyable, with a long nicely balanced finish. Compared to the 2012 this was quite a bit richer, age showing how these wines can fill out without spoiling their balance and elegance. A deeper richer bass to the 2012’s tenor. Yum. 95

2006 JL Chave Hermitage . Again there is that deeper resonance, richer but not fatter, compared to the 2012. And yet, many of the notes are similar. This was absolutely lovely, humming, maybe the most open of this flight. Like many of these bottles I would (and will) really like to enjoy one of these over the course of an evening, 3 or 4 hours or more, by themselves, to be able to pay a little more attention to how they unfold and develop. Still: stunning now, and will be good for decades, like all of these wines. 95

Flight 3: 2008. We decided to do these by themselves out of consideration for how different this vintage is from the others. Even so, by comparison these were much less interesting wines (though still lovely) to their brothers from better vintages.

2008 Allemand Reynard. Very nice nose, herbal, red fruit, higher toned than the previous flights. Not as much going on - enjoyable, but no 4th of July heroics. The palate was similarly lighter, less dense, though the mix of red fruit and olive tapenade was engaging. Less interesting mid palate and merely a long finish. A nice wine. 92

2008 JL Chave Hermitage. Interesting next to the Reynard, as this was similarly light, higher toned and overall less interesting than the 2006/12. But also was starting to show some nice aged development, especially the herbal tapenade mix that I look for in these wines. Still, this took some vigorous swirling to get it to reveal itself. Still a tad closed, or just a lighter cousin? Not sure. 92.

Flight 4: Some older bottles. Here the pairings start to break down, but this was an interesting sampler. Served with KI’s divine lamb chops. Also my notes started petering out.

2004 Jamet Cote Rotie. Yes Jamet made an appearance, and this was dramatically different from all the other bottles tonight. Funny, but I had just this just a couple of months ago (also excellent then) but tonight those differences really stood out. In a lot of ways this appeared more youthful than the other Rhônes. Very red fruited and almost confected on the nose. Sweet and charming. The nose evolved over the course of this flight to be more of a potpourri kind of earthy floral sweetness, but those notes remained. The palate was similarly youthful, red fruited, well balanced, starting to show a little tapenade and peppery age. Long finish. Really pretty - and it’s nice to see that Cote Rotie is in the game, but playing with different cards. 93

2000 Allemand Reynard. Possibly an off bottle? Some nice aromatics, but kind of hollow in the mid-palate. Less going on. It did seem to fill out over the evening and showed more balanced on the palate and a peppery finish, but I’m not sure about this bottle.

1997 Chave Hermitage. Excellent aromatics leaning far more heavily into the tapenade, allspice, herbs, meaty side of things, with still some darker fruit. The palate was really quite tasty, was great with the lamb chops. Not as sexy or engaging as the others but a very nice wine. Suffered tonight by comparison. 93

1996 Chave Hermitage. Just when I was despairing of these older bottles showing up without swagger, the 1996 exploded from my glass with just an amazing aged Hermitage nose with all those characteristic notes. Very intensely tapenade and meaty. Beautiful, engaging, fun, evolved into a darker fruited zone and then back to the tapenade. The palate was poised, graceful, almost delicate while also being deep, rich, powerful, intense and brain filling. How does Chave pull this off? No clue. WOTN for me. 97

What a great evening. Than you Jon for organizing, and I’m really sorry you missed it. We owe you one!

[ybarselah]

insanely great and useful notes. thanks for taking the time.

the consistency - and consitently high level - of chave over the years is remarkable.

[Craig_G]

A few comments and observations…

If people have some experience with Chave and Allemand and have a style preference between them, I don’t think this tasting would change any minds. The wines were top notch and very different, Allemand with a more wild, spicy and floral character and Chave more down the meaty bouillon path. The 2012 and 2006 flight showed that very clearly. In 2008 it was less so; perhaps lower ripeness caused the Chave to have more herbal and floral character and also toned down the Allemand character, bringing them closer together. I actually preferred the 08 Allemand though in the 12/06 flight I preferred the Chaves. One of our bigger Allemand fans flipped and preferred the 08 Chave, so go figure!

I was very happy with the 2006 Chave as it seems to be going squarely down the path of older vintages. For all the talk of Chave changing style from 1999 onwards, I’m not convinced - it may be that we just haven’t tasted those wines when they are mature.

As Richard indicated the 1996 Chave was excellent. The 1997 was very nice on the nose but some folks who had tasted another one recently felt this bottle wasn’t as good. I remember it being more powerful but it’s been quite a few years since I last had it.

The 2005 Chave Blanc was great. I’d be interested to try it again down the road. In previous verticals, I’ve preferred the 15-20 year old whites to older ones, but I don’t know if that’s about best age ranges or the particular vintages or bottles.

[MChang]

I had the 97 Chave a few years ago and thought it was pretty anonymous and people were up in arms lol

[Greg_K]

The 97 Chave has always been a quieter and almost saline driven rendition of Chave, fitting the vintage. I don’t think people with more modern palates would find it very exciting.

[MChang]

@Greg_K

The 97 Chave has always been a quieter and almost saline driven rendition of Chave, fitting the vintage. I don’t think people with more modern palates would find it very exciting.

1997 Chave Hermitage

Ready to drink. Olive tapenade and garrique on the nose. Well integrated, elegant, soft tannins. Certainly Syrah, but not necessarily northern Rhône feeling. Slightly glossy and polished. Gained in power over an hour in glass. I liked this a lot but didn’t love it. Intellectually a beautiful, well made wine, but no visceral reaction to it.

[S_Rash]

Thanks for sharing your notes on this magical tasting. Cheers!!

[Greg_K]

Thanks for the notes.

[Jon_H]

Thanks for the notes, Richard. Very disappointed to have missed it, but glad you all had fun. Enjoyed the messages from everyone during dinner - and my apologies for the person who flaked without notice (bad form on his part).

We’ll have to do another get together soon

[Alan_Rath]

Could have been a magical evening, but one of the bottles wasn’t opened and decanted ahead, so there was a smidge of sediment that ruined the evening completely. It was all I could do not to just sulk in the corner until time to carpool back

I’ll get my act together and post some notes later. Craig has, in broad strokes, summarized my thoughts pretty well.

[R_Frankel]

Jon, really a huge bummer that you couldn’t make it. Thank you for driving and organizing! I’m happy to open a few Rhônes with you any time.

[marc_d]

We tried the ‘08 Chave pretty recently and it was a tough wine to read. Lighter vintage and tight. It didn’t open much with air was my main impression. Kind of elegant structure, acid more noticeable than tannin.
Thank you for posting these notes, enjoyed reading them!

[Claus_Jeppesen]

I would have liked a 1996 Allemand Reynard with the Chave. Best Alllemand I’ve tasted

[Zachary_Ross]

Great notes, what a fun time. Although these days I tend to shy away from megatastings like this, where each bottle on its own would be the centerpiece of a wonderful dinner, it is inspiring to see people enjoying the hell out of these great wines.

[Ken_Lamb]

Excellent notes…both great producers and nice to have a Jamet in for contrast.

Adding a bump for Kitchen Istanbul. I’ve dined there several times. The owner is a very enthusiastic wine lover…he’s welcoing customers bringing interesting and finer wines…and also has a pretty interesting selection of both classic and eclectic wines. Those in SF or visiting should definitely consider eating there…I agree with the description posted above on it being more Mediterranean than purely Turkish but it has some excellent Turkish dishes. In any event, easy to make it work with the wines.

[Alan_Rath]

My notes from the dinner. Honestly, as interesting as it is to be able to compare side by side, it’s also a disservice to these wines to taste so many of them together. My palate certainly isn’t capable of remaining fresh and neutral through so many wines (a reason I heavily discount reviewers who sample wines in large tastings; it’s simply impossible to evaluate wines in that kind of setting). And these wines, in particular, change with time in the glass that we aren’t able to give them when just powering through flights. I’m glad I was able to attend, and it is really interesting to gain some insight into styles and vintages, but I would have loved to be able to spend an entire evening with each of these wines individually, or at least in pairs.

2002 Dom Pérignon Champagne - France, Champagne (9/30/2023)
I will certainly draw some ire for this, but I don't get the acclaim for this wine, at least in this vintage. Starts out nicely, a bit of sweetness on the palate, but frankly lacks distinction, complexity, or interest. It's a nicely pleasant sparkling wine. Came back to it later in the evening, and it has turned noticeably sweeter, which dominates. Just not that interesting, and certainly not for what it sells for. (88 points)

2018 Walter Scott Chardonnay Cuvée Anne - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley (9/30/2023)
A distinct PYCM nose, with a bit of SO2, nicely rich fruit, vibrant, some saline, but seems just a touch underripe, almost purposely. Enjoyable. (89 points)

2016 Anne Boisson Meursault Sous La Velle - France, Burgundy, Côte de Beaune, Meursault (9/30/2023)
Light on the nose, not picking up much, but it sings on the palate, with medium rich fruit, lovely saline, good depth, and quite a lasting, interesting finish. Nicely balanced, not overly complex, just plain delicious. (91 points)

2016 Domaine Labet Chardonnay En Chalasse - France, Jura, Côtes du Jura (9/30/2023)
An Andy wine, acquired taste, but I can see the attraction once you adjust to the style. Savory, higher acidity, frankly a little hard to describe without tasting. It's not the crisper, more saline style of burgundy, but has broader, rounder, more savory umami flavors. Probably not a style I will chase after, but an enjoyable diversion. (91 points)

2005 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage Blanc - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (9/30/2023)
Lovely, slight roasted nuts on the nose, hints of candle wax; palate is medium rich, with good acidity, the roasted nuts appear, keeps getting better with air. Can't remember drinking 05 Blanc before, this doesn't show some of the richer, more voluptuous character of vintages I've had in the past several years (99, 2000, 2007, 2012). It's a bit more like the 08, seemingly needing quite a bit more time to really blossom. (92 points)

2006 Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas (9/30/2023)
So much wildness on the nose, explosive, bramble, spice, a wine to just sit and smell. Later on there are appears to be a bit of VA, which probably adds to the lift and complexity. Allemand is known to like a bit of that, so no surprise. Medium intensity on the palate, deep, dark fruit, all that spice and bramble mixed in, only just starting to lighten a bit since release, moderate tannins make this quite drinkable today, but I can't help but think it will be even better in another 5-10 years. Looking back at my previous note, it's clear this is not just the lush, friendly wine it was when younger, and has much more to show as it develops. (95 points)

2006 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (9/30/2023)
Beautiful nose, starting to really show the trademark Chave truffle, creosote, grilled meats, lovely palate, darker red fruit, some nice smokiness, somewhat softer than the 06 Allemand paired with it, but still good acidity, moderate tannins. A lovely Chave, young still, but starting to drink nicely.

Out of interest, I found my note from tasting this on release:
reserved nose hints of dark crushed fruit creosote palate dark very brooding deep red fruit very good structure and acidity but so backward and secretive right now. Score impossible (94 points)

2012 Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas (9/30/2023)
A bit reticent on the nose at first, but with air the wildness starts to come out, spice, bramble, violets; medium intensity, dark boysenberry fruit, savory, briny, brilliant acidity, more spice, young, complex, delicious. (94 points)

2012 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (9/30/2023)
Nose is slow to show itself, needs some air time, then there are hints of the classic Chave truffles and grill smoke; this is more elegant and tame than the 12 Allemand paired with it, good acidity though not as blazing as the Allemand, more deep red fruit in contrast to the Allemand boysenberry, more complexity is yet to come, but this is an outstanding wine in the making, just needs another 10-20 years. (93 points)

2008 Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas (9/30/2023)
Nose is similar to the 06, if a bit less intense, the same wild bramble/spice/violet; palate shows nice, deeper blue fruit, slightly lighter than the 06 and 12 tonight, with lovely, lightly complex flavors of boysenberry, spice, violets, a bit more obviously tannic than the other two, maybe because the palate intensity isn't quite there to mask the tannins. Still, a beautiful wine, from a somewhat outlier vintage.

And for interest, a note from release in 2011:
slightly sweet nose, deep dark black/boysenberry, decent fruit, some richness, fairly structured, brooding. (92 points)

2008 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (9/30/2023)
This wine has always been an outlier vintage, surprisingly even more than 2002, and this bottle maintains that. Lighter body than 06, 12, even 96 and 97 open tonight, a touch softer than the paired 08 Allemand, lovely complexity, more intricate than powerful, one could be forgiven for thinking this a Grand Cru burgundy instead of Rhone, if presented blind. A wine I quite adore, though not classic Chave.

For comparison, my note from tasting this on release:
deep smoky crushed berry compote nose, reserved dark fruit, boysenberry/pomegranate/black cherry, brooding, moderate acidity, fine tannins, med finish 92 (92 points)

1996 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (9/30/2023)
The nose is surprisingly moderate, showing a bit less of the classic Chave truffle and smoke, palate is somewhat resolved, opens a little easy, then turns more savory, adding complexity as it airs. Quite beautiful. (93 points)

1997 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (9/30/2023)
Spectacular nose, classic, truffle, mushroom, earth, just amazing. But the palate fails to live up to the nose in this bottle, lighter body, fairly simple red cherry, touch of sweetness, good acidity. Air helps this, adding some savory complexity. Could be this just needed a longer decant, or more time than we had at dinner. (92 points)

2000 Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas (9/30/2023)
The same wild bramble/spice nose as the younger versions of this wine on the table tonight, there is definitely a kinship to the wines from this place and this winemaker's hand. Palate is on the somewhat lighter side, lovely still, leaning more cherry than dark berry notes, resolving fairly well at this middle age. Lovely wine, though maybe a step behind the others tonight. (91 points)

2004 Domaine Jamet Côte-Rôtie - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Côte-Rôtie (9/30/2023)
Fairly dark in color, a bit cloudy in contrast to the Chave and Allemand wines on the table. Lovely nose, on the lighter side, not quite the quintessential Jamet vegetal signature, but it's there in the background; nicely intense on the palate, classic Jamet mix of darker raspberry and brighter strawberry notes, excellent acidity, and nicely complex. Lovely wine. (93 points)

[R_Frankel]

Alan, thanks for posting all your notes and pics.

On whether this kind of event is a disservice to the wines: A subject we’ve discussed before and I’ve thought a lot about. My conclusion is that I am comfortable with it. We do a lot of these kinds of dinners, and I’ve come to enjoy them as extremely educational, an indulgent but deep way to enjoy wines and an increasingly important part of my life as a social being.

It’s really only possible from events like this to get a strong immediate sense of vintage differences and aging curves. I know I love these producers, but now I know a lot more about how to enjoy these pricey bottles.

Another way I think about this - for every bottle I bring to an event like this, I probably open 15-20 bottles singly and can follow over the course of an evening. That’s an ok ratio for me.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Awesome write-up, thoughts and pictures. Thanks for sharing that, Alan. The food looked delish but also quite rich.

[Alan_Rath]

When I say “disservice” I mean that we aren’t really able to give them each the time and attention they deserve. And, at least for myself, it’s a bit of a shame to judge them individually as we do in such a setting. But, on balance, I agree that the value in being able to taste them side by side at least partially outweighs the negatives. My preference would be to open smaller sets of wines, say 2-4. But that’s hard to do. And then attendees feel compelled to bring other “trophy” wines, which dilutes the attention to the main event lol (which I understand).

[Alan_Rath]

Actually the food was a very good match, not really too rich. Though a couple of the dishes (notably cauliflower) were seasoned a bit strongly, and needed a bit of time for palate recovery.

You can seriously not have too many grilled lamb chops when drinking northern Rhone!