Affected by a Brettanomyces spoilage, very likely yes.
These numbers can’t tell how bad. If it is a gamay wine from a light vintage probably quite bad…
Adam, I guess to me the relevant question would be how much more brett Allemand has than the average Cornas/northern Rhône. Otherwise, I’m not sure saying it has brett means that it’s bretty, if that makes sense. I’ve never found Allemand at all bretty (board favorite or not), but that doesn’t mean it’s 100% brett free.
Heck, I have had bretty Napa Cabernet. Shit happens!
As for Allemand, I have not noticed it. It’s sure as heck not Pegau!
this is an excellent post that demonstrates the point; there’s a spectrum of tastes plus we know that brett can bloom and be worse in some situations. if you look back at the pegau threads, you’ll see that plenty of folks said the same things as above.
Really? The numbers I gave you are 2 to 3 times average sensory threshold. They tell me quite a bit how bad. I don’t see how variety and/or the concentration of a wine impacts smelling 4-EP and 4-EG. I’ve had delicate, light wines at this level that smell bretty and I’ve had dark, concentrated wines at this level that smell bretty. It’s all the same.
I too love the conversation here - and the info provided by Adam and Mike is helpful indeed. My points above have more to do with tasters’ ‘perceptions’ rather than ‘facts’. Brett is one of those situations where one can ‘prove’ that it’s in a wine via science, but many will still insist it’s not there. Add on bottle variation and it makes conversations that much more ‘tricky’.
Adam, keep doing what you do, my friend. I truly appreciate it.
Cheers.
I’ve had delicate, light wines at this level that smell bretty and I’ve had dark, concentrated wines at this level that smell bretty. It’s all the same.
Back on opinions instead of facts?
Nothing to add then, not my major.
Eric,
Seems that Mike is using ‘fact’ to back up his ‘opinions’. Not sure what the problem is here - other than you not wanting to ‘believe’ that this could be the case . . .
Cheers.
in the case of northern rhone syrah, my gut is that most people merely identify the brett as classic syrah aromas until/unless they are so over the top to be noxious, which is likely quite rare. the band-aid aroma typically found in cote-rotie for example is brett!
so the idea of whether allemand is bretty or not has nothing to do with the level or brett in the wine but rather the taster’s abillity to (1) identify it, and (2) care.
to wit:
WHY DOES BRETT SMELL DIFFERENT IN DIFFERENT WINES?
Brett compounds are usually always present together, albeit in different ratios. These ratios have been shown to be related to the different levels of their precursors naturally present in different grape varieties. Some typical ratios in varieties, and likely sensory effects compared to 4-EP alone, are shown below.
Variety 4-EP:4-EG ratio Likely Brett sensory effect
Pinot Noir 3:1 More leather and barnyard, spicy
Cabernet Sauvignon, Nebbiolo 9:1 Similar to 4-EP alone, but with a pungent spice
Shiraz 23:1 Similar to 4-EP alone, pure Band-Aid
Thus while a Brett-affected Shiraz might smell like pure Band-Aid, a Brett-affected Pinot Noir will possibly smell more ‘animal’, ‘barnyard’ and ‘spicy’, perhaps akin to and often confused with savoury characters of Pinot Noir wines and heavily toasted or spicy oak flavours.
Larry, hilarious thread, to be sure. If you go back ~11 years to Parker’s board and substitute some names and wineries (Parker’s favorite Rhone back then), same exact arguments were made on both sides. The difference is the winemaker in question chimed in literally a minute after Parker posted that he just pulled a bottle out of his magical cellar (in real time as the arguments were posted online) and declared the wine “crystal clean with absolutely no brett”. Winemaker’s post just after stated that ALL of her wines contain brett. The timing couldn’t be better, in fact, and was a stunner for Parker and his fan boys defending him and taking his side.
Adam is very on point that for many “unable” or “unwilling to detect” brett in a wine designates such a wine as brett free. Panels, and facts, be damned. I stopped buying Rhones a while back, don’t like gambling with my money (and the time it takes for them to age to then find out the mistake) since many of them are crap shoots. And I seriously dislike brett.
Also, you answered your own points and questions to Adam above. Just how does one control bloom curve of brett? Parker failed to answer this very obvious, and key, question at the time, and I seriously doubt, to put it mildly, that anyone else can. A little bit of brett is akin to being a little bit pregnant. Shame so many refuse to face reality, and fact. And, yes, I am surprised to see you, of all people, falling into same denials and illogical excuses Parker did at the time.
Just curious. Would YOU release a bretty wine? And would YOU let bretty barrels sit in your cellar?
I would claim that “being bretty” is a trick question, as the answers from experts here seem to show. It’s one thing to know that a wine is contaminated with brett yeast (Adam’s conclusion about Allemand, based on DNA testing). But, as Eric points out, that’s not necessarily sufficient to make a wine manifest as “bretty” if the byproduct compounds aren’t present in the wine.
I’ve had plenty of Allemand that I didn’t think was “bretty”, though I trust Adam’s test results that suggest there is probably contamination in most bottles.
I don’t think this is quite so complicated. To my palate at least, Allemand and Pégaü are really in different categories as far as brettanomyces is concerned. I would rank Allemand as one of the purest expressions of Syrah in the Northern Rhône. As Eric observes, the presence of some brettanomyces cells does not necessarily make for a bretty wine. The key issue for avoiding brett bloom in bottle, at least as I understand it, is the absence of any kind of available sugars; and that’s more likely with very ripe Grenache than with lower-octane Syrah in Cornas. 2003 Pégaü has around 3 grams RS as I recall, so not surprising that that could go badly wrong in the right/wrong conditions. People who have run numbers on Thierry’s wines might be able to contradict me, but I would be surprised if any of his wines had that much residual sugar. But it would be interesting to have some concrete numbers on specific vintages and cuvées from folks who have tested the wines, as opposed to hypotheticals, or simply showing that there are a few brettanomyces cells present in the wines, without any reference to their byproducts.
Who cares if Allemand is bretty or not, if your experience tells you differently, why would your friend’s palate prevent you from buying? I say this as someone who can tolerate a decent amount of brett but can’t stand even the slightest hint of TCA; otoh I know folks who can handle a decent amount of TCA but immediately coil at even the slightest hint of brett.
A far better question would have been asking if the specific Allemand in question is considered bretty or flawed.
…
It’s funny how much we tend to overcomplicate this hobby, one which ultimately boils down to individual subjectivity.
Do Mike’s numbers not count?
Adam Lee
Okay.
Like many wines, Allemand has (apparently) been proven to contain brett.
That said, the question of whether or not it’s “bretty” (or too “bretty” to drink) is entirely subjective.
Would be great to know what vintage and cuvée they are from…
Also storage conditions and stats. Unless this is a single sample, in which case…
My worse experience and my best experience were with the 2004 Sans Soufre at Eleven Madison. It was simply one of the most amazing bottles of wine I have ever had. Truly incredible. So much so that I went back a year later and ordered the same wine. Not only was it horrifically Bretty on the palate but had developed the spritz that you get with a full on Brett bloom.
Adam Lee
The Russian Roulette of sans soufre.
Did you send it back as flawed? I’m always on the fence as to whether “too much” Brett is a returnable offense.