Allemand Bretty?

WINE TALK
21

Brett isn’t an issue for 99% of Northern Rhone IME.

22

Yes, most of the time. Even taken a couple to the lab (it’s there). I find it problematic.

Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company

23

You must either have an unbelievably high recognition threshold or love brett.

24

Here are the challenges here:

  1. Even if a lab states that the wine has brett, it does not mean that it will be ‘noticed’ either if levels are low OR if someone doesn’t understand what it is

  2. Based on this thread and others, there still seems to be a lot of ‘disageement’ as to what brett is and how it shows itself vs. other compounds

  3. If someone ‘likes’ brett, they are less apt to state it is there.

  4. Every bottle is different, and therefore, unless we are literally drinking the same bottle, there is a very good chance that we may be discussing ‘apples and oranged’.

On a side note, our tasting group has tested some bottles post tasting that showed really elevated levels of VA or LAB on some very well liked bottles here on WB . . .

Cheers

25

Wow, I can’t even say that, and look at my signature! :wink:

26

Allemand isn’t bretty
I agree it is seldom seen in septentrional Rhône

27

Dang Claus, I had to look up that word! Game of Thrones worthy.

28

I don’t really see the challenges here, Larry. Using your standards we couldn’t ever say a wine has anything because it may not be noticed by some. The OP asked if Allemand has brett. I posted that I have noticed it in the wines and tested them and they have always when I have tested them. Whether or not anyone likes it or notices it or disagrees as to what it is, is irrelevant. If it is there it is there.
I gave no value judgment on liking it or not other than I don’t. I know others do like brett and that’s their prerogative.

Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company

29

I guess I see the ‘challenge’ is that even if a wine is ‘shown’ to have brett by a lab, because of a number of factors, many will say that it does not.

Cheers

30

So it’s like “fake news.”

Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company

31

I get what Adam is saying. If it’s scientifically proven to have or not have something then it is what it is. For example, I can handle a lot of spice in my food. If you put very little spice I might think there’s nothing in there. And somebody else who can’t handle spice at all will pick up on it. But it is still there.

32

Your analogy would be even more apropos here if you and this other person were talking about the ‘same dish’ but were actually not eating it together, but had enjoyed it from the same restaurant on 2 separate occasions . . .

Cheers.

33

Interesting. For the science and since I highly doubt the lab test was a DNA screening on lees (if any in those wines), was it a test on total volatile phenols via simple GC or specificaly on 4-EP, 4-EG and 4-EC via SBSE/GC/MS?

Cheers

34

https://www.etslabs.com/analyses/%24WSP

Hope that answers the question.

Cheers

Adam

35

Thank you for posting that link, my friend. One thing to note is that this test is not an absolute one, but instead has a rather low detection level. It is therefore quite possible for a wine to still have very low levels of Brett that can bloom later under optimum conditions but it show no brett on the test . .

Cheers

36

So DNA screening indeed! My bad…
Presence of brettanomyces in wild yeasts fermented unfiltered wines is totally unevitable. Brettanomyces, like Saccharomyces is everywhere even in an empty clean glass!
Brettanomyces become a spoilage when metabolysing any of the 4-Ex above a certain level.
DNA screening alone is not sufficient to caracterize a spoilage.
It has to done along with 4-EP 4-EG and 4-EC individual detection to be conclusive.
ETS labs offer SPME/GC/MS (similar to SBSE/GC/MS) as a complementary analysis and refer to Chatonnet’s work on wine spoilages.
It has to be noted that he pointed out a lot of cases of false positives results by using plate culture (DNA analysis ancestor in a way) or GC only, due to a lot of factors such as the use of new highly toasted oak (naturally containing volatile phenols), hence the legend of new oak being a good environment for brettanomyces.
Definitively not an easy topic, and as a winemaker, I would be extremely cautious before being too affirmative on a wine that is not mine.

37

So apparently I should just stop posting on Wine Berserkers. A consumer considering buying wine asks if a certain wine has Brett. I post that I have found that it does - in an attempt to be helpful. That is disagreed with. Then I mention that I have also tested for it and found it. Then I am told that those tests can sometimes be unreliable.
So what is the standard that we now must have to comment on a wine and try to help out a fellow wine lover?

Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company

38

You may find any wine you want bretty, for sure.
But, imho, you shouldn’t use an incomplete lab analysis with the authority given by your position as a renowned winemaker to give the legitimity and weight of a proven fact to what is only you opinion at this stage.
And I do respect your opinion per se. Not the manipulation of incomplete scientific data.

39

So Eric, if a wine has a 4-EP of 1509 ppb and a 4-EG of 122 ppb, would you consider that wine bretty?

40

this is pretty standard operating procedure here. of course allemand can be bretty as can many wines. allemand is a
“unicorn” so any questioning of the practices there will be shut down by the herd.

i love that you responded with facts. and i see mike officer here as well. i recall sending a bottle of pegau to him years ago (checks notes: april 2006!!) and the results were… off the charts deplorable. basically the same conversation as here.