All Natural Wine

[Bruce_G1]

A couple of months ago, of wines in this “natural wine” database, around 20% of the total S02 levels were above 40ppm

Which natural wine database is that, Steve?

[Bruce_G1]

A famous wine critic once said to me about natural wines… “why not just say you don’t know how to make wine”?

I’m sure you’re trying to make some kind of point here, Todd.
But, to tell the truth, I kinda lost interest after “A famous wine critic once said…”

[Bruce_G1]

Still want to know who does 400ppm SO2 adds. And just how one makes such a claim and assumes it will fly (with non-millennials).

I know this question isn’t directed at me, but I’ll just chime in that I agree with you on this.
The 400ppm number seems fantastical. Just briefly checking through things, I find some old text books that allow for up to 400 ppm total sulfur added in the special case of Europe’s sweet wines (I assume heavily botrytized wines). For all other classes of European wines and for ALL wines from USA and Australia (regardless of type) additions of 400 ppm would be well over the legally allowable limit.

In short, I imagine few people (if any) are adding this amount of SO2.
Quite frankly it would render the wine undrinkable for years for most people.

[Todd_Hamina]

It’s all good Bruce. I love the notion of Natural wine. I just can’t stand the term.

[GregT]

I don’t know about the USA, but in the UK we get quite a broad range of Georgian wine.

Steve - that’s an interesting issue. In Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, NY, there is a huge Russian population. They drink lots of Georgian wine. I had friends there and we’d go down but most of what they liked was pretty sweet. There was a Polish customer I had when I sold wine and he stocked his store with some of that stuff too because it was apparently popular throughout the Soviet bloc.

They have such a long history of wine making it’s a shame that so much of it was not available to people in the west. These days there is a different sort of wine being brought in, just like there is from Slovenia and Hungary. A generation after the Soviets, people are anxious to see what they can do. I’ve had more Hungarian and Slovenian and Czech and Armenian wine than Georgian, but it’s a wine culture I would love to explore more. I had some pics somewhere but after several moves can’t find them - I’d post a few of the various backyard wine making facilities that I toured as recently as four years ago. In one case the guy was using the same barrel his grandfather had used. I don’t know what was growing in there but I know there were a few dead cats around.

[Steve_Slatcher]

A couple of months ago, of wines in this “natural wine” database, around 20% of the total S02 levels were above 40ppm

Which natural wine database is that, Steve?

It’s compiled by Raw Wine, and accessible through the website I thought you were talking about:

Natural Wine Directory | RAW WINE

(Incidentally, despite what they say, some of “their” wines are over 70ppm)

[Steve_Slatcher]

I had some pics somewhere but after several moves can’t find them - I’d post a few of the various backyard wine making facilities that I toured as recently as four years ago. In one case the guy was using the same barrel his grandfather had used. I don’t know what was growing in there but I know there were a few dead cats around.

I’d love to see those if you ever find them, Greg.

In the meantime, you might be interested in some videos of home winemaking in Georgia. If so, scroll to the bottom of this page

Georgian winemaking starts at home

[Otto_Forsberg]

Yes.

Thanks for the response, Greg.
So, if, as you say, “most wineries bottle in mid 30s free SO2” I’m guessing that the totals would be at least in the 80 - 100 ppm range.
Far better than it was a generation ago, to be sure. It’s still a bit higher than the amounts being discussed and employed by those trying to make wine often described as nur*l. For them, 40 ppm total seems to be the upper limit.
Interestingly, the Raw Wine Fair website says that their limit is 70 ppm total, as combined added and naturally occuring sulfites. Higher than I would have imagined, and certainly within a range accessible to those making modern, low intervention yet not quite nu*al wines.

It certainly depends on the pH of the wine. To hit free SO2 mid 30s ppm for a ripe red wine at pH 4, you’d have to add a tenfold amount of SO2 compared to a zesty white at pH 3.

[Adam_Frisch]

OK, you got me intrigued now. Do tell just who does 400ppm? Names, please. At least one.

And also, ever checked how many wines these days actually exceed 40ppm? This has been covered ad nauseam for years now, most of the market is below 40ppm for a very, very long time (IIRC, “organic” wine rule is at or below 40ppm, so have no idea what the 50ppm for “natural” means in reality when it exceeds the norm for almost all “UNnatural”). If yours is “natural”, then by extension others are UNnatural, right? Nice and subtle marketing gimmick that seems to escape most. How many consumers even know what the S02 norms are these days and simply buy into outrageous claims nat winemakers make on their say so? I have nothing against “marketing” and self-promotion, as long as it is not at the expense of making unfounded claims against “others”, making outrageous claims that have no basis in reality is just not going to win you much in the end. Most wineries bottle in mid 30s free SO2, some even less, do you even know that?

Promote YOUR wines and what YOU put in the bottle, on their own merit, and ABSTAIN from pointing fingers at others while making wild claims. That’s your best marketing approach at successful sales. Marketing 101.

I always wonder just where does fruit for nat wines come from? Is it some stand-alone vineyard in a middle of nowhere where other nearby vineyards do not spray, and no soil transmission takes place? How do you know your wines are not affected by nearby chem use, if its actually in use next door, or even adjoining block? Do you guys actually test your wines prior to bottling before making claims in regard to chem exclusion? Or simply bottle and sell via “because I say so”? People you pan usually test everything they make, at least ready to bottle/blended lot by lot as a normal pre-bottling routine and pre-caution. Seems someone should buy a bunch of nat wines and run panels. And in your own estimate, what are the odds that claims made by nat winemakers do not reflect reality? How many would fail and show above zero amounts of chems when run through a panel? Just curious.

I am absolutely fine with the idea of making wine according to “traditions”, to each his/her own. I also hope that you actually make wine onsite (at the vineyard), and do not use ANY modern conveniences. You know, trucking fruit to a winery miles away. Forklifts. Tanks. Press. Using electricity at the winery. HOT WATER, for cleanliness. How about those water lines and water hoses that didn’t really exist 6,000 years ago. They didn’t have bottles 6,000 years ago as well, why do you guys use bottles to sell your juice? CORKS? LABELS? Foils? I am willing to bet fruit you buy comes from a vineyard that has irrigation built-in, did that also exist 6,000 years ago? Wait, just how do you deliver wine to accounts/customers? Do tell. I am sorry, but had I owned a wine shop and someone walked in to sell me “6,000 year old tradition wine”, the first thing I’d be doing would be walking out the door to check for the horse cart that brought you to my doorstep. Provided horse carts even existed 6,000 years ago to begin with (I study ancient history, but I’ll cut some slack here). Maybe I am a traditionalist, after all.

So, where does one draw the line on “6,000 year old tradition”? Where does “tradition” stop and “its OK to do this” begin? Except for the sales pitch, of course.

I do not begrudge anyone making nat wines, your decision and your life, but I seriously take offense when modern CLEAN and SAFE winemaking is derided by the lot and used as promotional material. Make it, sell it, no issue. Absolutely none. Just do not make statements at the expense of others to promote your own wine when your statements are borderline defamatory. PLEASE.

And, yes, I still want to know who does 400ppm. Seriously. Talk is cheap.

You’re being a little unfair. I have neither proposed or argued that I claim to make wine like they did 6000 years ago. That was someone else. I make wine just like everyone else, using modern equipment and methods. I was just talking marketing strategies when you do unfiltered or natural ferments etc. And the changing customer base and their increased interest in all things “organic” and “natural”. It was a genuine question, not a statement on how it should be done.

And yes 400ppm is extreme, and I have no examples to give, but it is allowed in the EU for some sweet wines.

From my point of view that sounds really weird, since organic wines have been The Thing here in the northern part of Europe for more than a decade and their market share seems to grow year by year, whereas there are only a small handful of organic beers here available.

Herr Forsberg.

I’m from the neighboring country originally and it seems that what they drink there is 3L bag-in-box wines that cost $30. Or celebrity wines made by reality stars. That’s the market. In my opinion, nobody cares if it’s organic or not, as long as it’s 1) cheap and comes in 2) large amounts or 3) is made by some TV personality. But admittedly, I have not lived back home since the early 2000’s, so maybe things have changed recently. But when I go back to visit, I tend to see a lot of shitty un-organic bag-in-boxes at my friends and family’s houses.

Håller du inte med?

[Otto_Forsberg]

Yes, that is correct, but it does not suggest that an organic wine MUST contain less than 10ppm. It just says that WHEN (if) it contains less than 10ppm it can have on the label “Contains No Detectable Sulfites”, or “May Contain Naturally Occurring Sulfites”.

To my understanding, in the USA an organic wine must be one that adheres to the rules of “contains no detectable suflites”, hence the overlap.

OK, the 10 ppm limit may be buried somewhere in the regs. But if it does exist it is rather important, as it would rule out many wines. I will also add that if grapes happen to produce more than 10 ppm during fermentation, it seems to be rather ridiculous not to allow the wine to be called organic. What is a winemaker to do? Add chemicals to remove the SO2?

That was my original point - which is why I find the requirements for the “organic wine” in the US so ridiculous. I’ve heard some American organic producers rant how it is nigh impossible to produce “oragnic wine” in the US, which is why they are making only wines “made from organic grapes”. It is impossible to control the amount of sulfites produced during the fermentation, so it’s pure luck whether the wine will turn out “organic” or not. The requirement for no added sulfites and maximum limit for the total SO2 at 10 ppm is just ridiculous.

I tried to google for some sources that would clariy the matter, but all the sources that mentioned the 10 ppm limit only confirmed my original point. I’ve yet to find a source that would actually contradict me!

[Otto_Forsberg]

And yes 400ppm is extreme, but it is allowed in the EU for sweet wines.

This is true and to my understanding, inexpensive supermaket Trockenbeerenauslesen wines and the likes can hit this mark.

However, the limits for the dry table wines are noticeably lower.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Herr Forsberg.

I’m from the neighboring country originally and it seems that what they drink there is 3L bag-in-box wines that cost $30. Or celebrity wines made by reality stars. That’s the market. In my opinion, nobody cares if it’s organic or not, as long as it’s 1) cheap and comes in 2) large amounts or 3) is made by some TV personality. But admittedly, I have not lived back home since the early 2000’s, so maybe things have changed recently. But when I go back to visit, I tend to see a lot of shitty un-organic bag-in-boxes at my friends and family’s houses.

Håller du inte med?

It certainly seems to be so in Sweden, based on my observations on the Systembolaget selection in Haparanda (I visit the shop once or twice a year while visiting Lapland). 10 years ago the selection was very good for such a small and remote shop (when comparing to the overall selection of Alko), but year by year the selection has changed to semi-dry Appassimento wines and cheap bulk wines sold in bag-in-boxes. One could actually find some interesting wines there a decade ago, but now it seems almost impossible.

However, I check out what new wines System lists semi-regularly and the amount of organic wines have grown annually. Of course they still represent a rather small part of the overall selection, but nevertheless it’s far from minuscule. I guess the markets are different in the bigger cities compared to the country as a whole - at least that’s how the things are here in Finland.

Although BIBs are rather popular here in Finland as well, they aren’t nearly as popular here as in Sweden, since the price of a BIB is more or less the equivalent of 4 x 0,75-liter bottles - thus a BIB that would cost something like 22-25€ in Sweden costs +30€ in Finland. Since it doesn’t make a difference in price if one buys a BIB or 4 bottles, people tend to buy more wine in bottles. Consequently, it is more likely that they’ll grab an organic wine bottle or two instead of that mass-produced bulk wine BIB. And having worked in the monopoly shop in the past, I know there are quite a bit of people who come asking specifically for organic wines.

To my understanding, people really don’t care much about celebrity wines on this side of the Gulf.

[Steve_Slatcher]

I tried to google for some sources that would clariy the matter, but all the sources that mentioned the 10 ppm limit only confirmed my original point. I’ve yet to find a source that would actually contradict me!

Well, not many articles would focus on restrictions that do not apply. Anyway, I have noted the sources you mentioned, and will keep my eyes open for anything directly from the USDA.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I tried to google for some sources that would clariy the matter, but all the sources that mentioned the 10 ppm limit only confirmed my original point. I’ve yet to find a source that would actually contradict me!

Well, not many articles would focus on restrictions that do not apply. Anyway, I have noted the sources you mentioned, and will keep my eyes open for anything directly from the USDA.

My point was just that I remembered reading that 10 ppm was the maximum limit for total SO2 and all the articles that I’ve found via googling only corroborates my claim. However, nothing official so far.

I’ll also post here if I manage to find any official sources that would confirm or prove me wrong!

[Adam_Frisch]

Herr Forsberg.

I’m from the neighboring country originally and it seems that what they drink there is 3L bag-in-box wines that cost $30. Or celebrity wines made by reality stars. That’s the market. In my opinion, nobody cares if it’s organic or not, as long as it’s 1) cheap and comes in 2) large amounts or 3) is made by some TV personality. But admittedly, I have not lived back home since the early 2000’s, so maybe things have changed recently. But when I go back to visit, I tend to see a lot of shitty un-organic bag-in-boxes at my friends and family’s houses.

Håller du inte med?

It certainly seems to be so in Sweden, based on my observations on the Systembolaget selection in Haparanda (I visit the shop once or twice a year while visiting Lapland). 10 years ago the selection was very good for such a small and remote shop (when comparing to the overall selection of Alko), but year by year the selection has changed to semi-dry Appassimento wines and cheap bulk wines sold in bag-in-boxes. One could actually find some interesting wines there a decade ago, but now it seems almost impossible.

However, I check out what new wines System lists semi-regularly and the amount of organic wines have grown annually. Of course they still represent a rather small part of the overall selection, but nevertheless it’s far from minuscule. I guess the markets are different in the bigger cities compared to the country as a whole - at least that’s how the things are here in Finland.

Although BIBs are rather popular here in Finland as well, they aren’t nearly as popular here as in Sweden, since the price of a BIB is more or less the equivalent of 4 x 0,75-liter bottles - thus a BIB that would cost something like 22-25€ in Sweden costs +30€ in Finland. Since it doesn’t make a difference in price if one buys a BIB or 4 bottles, people tend to buy more wine in bottles. Consequently, it is more likely that they’ll grab an organic wine bottle or two instead of that mass-produced bulk wine BIB. And having worked in the monopoly shop in the past, I know there are quite a bit of people who come asking specifically for organic wines.

To my understanding, people really don’t care much about celebrity wines on this side of the Gulf.

Thanks for summary. As I said, I have not lived ‘i hemlandet’ for almost 2 decades now. When I left, BiB didn’t exist and Fetzer and Turning Leaf were big California sellers. How times have changed.

Perhaps for another discussion, but Scandinavia’s obsession with BiB in general, is another thing that I think is a sign of things to come worldwide. They’re actually ahead in this regard. It went from a shameful, low end product (like it is still viewed in most other markets) full of stigma, but now with clever marketing and consumer molding it has become almost an environmental preference. The right thing to buy. Even “good” wine producers make BiB for the Scandi market. It has totally displaced mass produced bottle wines. Only perhaps the higher end producers still get traction from bottles - low to medium producers all cater to BiB. Which is very different from the US market where only the lowest of the low cater to this. And BiB carries significant stigma.

I predict BiB will eventually conquer the world in most price brackets - Scandinavia just happens to be the battleground for it.

[GregP]

You’re being a little unfair. I have neither proposed or argued that I claim to make wine like they did 6000 years ago. That was someone else. I make wine just like everyone else, using modern equipment and methods. I was just talking marketing strategies when you do unfiltered or natural ferments etc. And the changing customer base and their increased interest in all things “organic” and “natural”. It was a genuine question, not a statement on how it should be done.

And yes 400ppm is extreme, and I have no examples to give, but it is allowed in the EU for some sweet wines.

Seriously? Nice of you now to try to wiggle your way out. Are YOU making sweet wines that somehow allows you to make unfounded statements and accusations against table wine producers and then change focus when taken to task? YOU made a statement, in discussion of YOUR TABLE WINES, even mentioned names such as RIDGE (of all people) and ridiculous SO2 numbers that somehow supposedly “interfere” with your wine’s ability to make inroads in the marketplace. Do YOU make sweet wines, yes or no? Simple question. And if the answer is NO, with the question being rhetorical, what gives you the right to smear others to promote your wine by claiming up to 400ppm SO2 adds? Maybe folks at Ridge, and others, should have their legal depts. take a better look at the smears. What’s allowed, and what’s really done, especially for TABLE WINES, are two hugely different things, nice of you to try changing lanes, and it applies to a couple of others above.

Funny how one argues his “traditional” wine project all the while using latest technological advances.

Asking once again, since it is clear you are now trying to avoid the discussion, AT WHAT POINT DO YOU DRAW THE LINE ON “TRADITIONAL” and SAY “THIS IS TRADITIONAL ENOUGH”? And what really, in YOUR mind, makes your wine “traditional”? As opposed to what others do, we’re talking small guys, not Ridge and the like. What do you guys do that is in any way different than other, say, under 500-2000 cases per year, producers do? List it. Please. Be specific. Because, save for low level SO2 adds that are about same as your “50ppm for nat wines”, to keep wines safe during elevage, I cannot think of even one other thing.

And, moreover, do you have panels to actually prove your wines are pesticide free? SO2 at bottling? Do others have panels as proof, even if for themselves? Yes, or no?

Where do you sell your wines, I am willing to invest and submit a bottle to ETS, on my dime, for a full panel. Among a few others I can find, I am now really interested in this “traditional” and “pesticide free”, seems its time to take a better look at the claims.

Oh, and BTW. Wine, until very recent times, was really consumed as additive and mixed in with water to, hopefully, kill bacteria in water. When you sell your nat wine to target audience, do you also tell them to consume it in the “traditional” way? Why not?

P.T. Barnum, and all that.

[Bruce_G1]

It’s compiled by Raw Wine, and accessible through the website I thought you were talking about:
https://www.rawwine.com/the-wine/the-list/
(Incidentally, despite what they say, some of “their” wines are over 70ppm)

Steve:

Thanks for that.
Yes, that was the website I was looking at, but I didn’t look at pages listing member wineries.
I was looking at the charter of quality, that states…

•No winemaking additives (yeasts, enzymes, vitamins, lysozymes etc) may be used in the cellar except for low levels of sulfites. You will be asked to supply analysis paperwork detailing total levels of sulfites for each wine you are presenting at RAW WINE. These levels will be included in the RAW WINE catalogue and on the RAW WINE website. If you do not add any sulfites whatsoever, the mention “no added sulfites” will appear instead but we do require analyses and the total SO2 will appear on the wine’s information. ** Please note: no sulphite totals may exceed 70 mg/L regardless of colour or style.

Not sure why some of the wines listed ar 70 ppm.
Maybe those were wines that weren’t poured at the fairs?

[Bruce_G1]

It certainly depends on the pH of the wine. To hit free SO2 mid 30s ppm for a ripe red wine at pH 4, you’d have to add a tenfold amount of SO2 compared to a zesty white at pH 3.

Molecular SO2 is extremely dependent upon wine pH.
Free v. Total SO2 is more about other aspects of wine chemistry-- the presence of sugars, aldehydes, etc.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I tried to google for some sources that would clariy the matter, but all the sources that mentioned the 10 ppm limit only confirmed my original point. I’ve yet to find a source that would actually contradict me!

Well, not many articles would focus on restrictions that do not apply. Anyway, I have noted the sources you mentioned, and will keep my eyes open for anything directly from the USDA.

Steve, still not an official source, but I found the original text from where I read about the US organic laws for the first time - in “Authentic Wine” by Jamie Goode.

In the United States, the regulations are particularly confusing. (…) If the wine is labeled “100% organic”, it must be from 100% organic fruit and must be made with the help of only organic processing aids. No added sulfites are allowed. If a wine is labeled “organic”, then it must contain 95% organically grown fruit and may not contain added sulfites (the wine may contain up to 10 ppm sulfites that are a product of fermentation).

Although another journalist, I think Goode has enough knowledge about wine and credibility as a writer that his words might have some weight on the matter?

[Otto_Forsberg]

It certainly depends on the pH of the wine. To hit free SO2 mid 30s ppm for a ripe red wine at pH 4, you’d have to add a tenfold amount of SO2 compared to a zesty white at pH 3.

Molecular SO2 is extremely dependent upon wine pH.
Free v. Total SO2 is more about other aspects of wine chemistry-- the presence of sugars, aldehydes, etc.

It is very true that molecular SO2 is extremely dependent of pH. Not only does a bigger portion of free SO2 remain in molecular form (up to ~6% or so), but it also works more effectively in lower pH.

However, Free vs. Total SO2 is definitely dependent of pH as well. A bigger proportion of SO2 remains free in lower pH. However, you are right in that the wine chemistry has an impact as well: different compounds like sugars, aldehydes or even chemicals that are byproducts of botrytis gob up SO2 pretty effectively. Most of these compounds can bind SO2 permanently, whereas some of the bound SO2 can become unbound and freed as the free SO2 is depleted over time.