Aging curves of top German GGs

I share Robert’s views but would add that the Keller Von der Fels can age quite well too (he didn’t say they couldn’t, rather expressing a preference when he felt they drank well).

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I definitely agree Von der Fels can age well. I still have a stash of 04 & 05.

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Thanks to all of you for thoughtful responses. Maybe it’s confirmation bias, but many of the GGs remind me a bit of Burgundy — where you drink either early for the fruit or 10 years later for the complexity/nuance.

But it seems I shouldn’t be embarrased about grip-and-rip on some of the 21 GCs I bought.

Eat dessert first, right? :kissing_heart:

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The residually sweet Mosel Rieslings deemed classic today by many producers and connoisseurs are often at their best either early on or only after ten or more years in bottle. :wink:

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I dunno, we had recently a comparative tasting of 2021 GGs and for the most I thought “Wow, this is probably good” - meaning that with almost all the wines I really couldn’t get a full picture of the wine because they were still either so closed, so primary or so awkward and all over the place. Of the ten wines, probably one or two were drinking pretty nicely right now.

But I guess all that boils down to your preference. For me, most of them drink like an entry-level Riesling, only with more power and concentration. However, they didn’t really offer much more pleasure than a similarly aged simple Riesling trocken would’ve. IMO, the thing that makes GG Rieslings so great emerges only with age - when the wines are still too young, they offer very little of the potential greatness that resides in them.

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I have no basis to judge this yet but this metaphor really stuck with me. https://www.wineberserkers.com/t/tn-checking-out-how-2020-gg-rieslings-are-coming-along/297439/18?

I think it’s hard to generalize across the category when there are reasonably important differences in residual sugar, free sulfites, and closure between producers within the same category…

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A suggestions if you can, try a young GG next to a mid-level wine (same vintage) made by the same producer.

Schafer-Fröhlich Felseneck and Schiefergestein would be a good because is entirely from Felseneck and half the price of the GG.

See which one you like more and if you see a large step up in the GG.

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Yes, from a rational point of view. But this is Berserkers! Home of generalizations and irrational exuberance. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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The 2007´s and 2008´s are about to enter the zone (Breuer, Schönleber, Dönnhoff, Keller…)

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I see your point Otto.

I have friends who are not shy about opening up Grand Cru red Burgundy two years after release. Typically I think they are nuts, finding the brooding wine is all about power and possibility, not immediate pleasure.

But every once in a while, these babies are a cornucopia of fruit and breeding/class.

I suppose it’s like William opines … it all varies based on site and material and winemaking.

As in most aspects of fine wine: It all depends …

Which means I’m basically chasing my tail here with OP. Thanks for indulging me.

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So I’ll give my theory with some facts but I’d love to hear people’s opinions of my thoughts

  1. I went to Alsace around 2009 and in a random store there was an Alsatian dry Riesling (sipp was the producer) that this store had 20 vintages of. I should have bought the entire lot and shipped it home but I bought the oldest one which was like a 1968 but I forget the exact year. I opened back home about a month later and it was the most transparent, clear as a bell, white wine I probably ever had. Not viscous a bit. It was unreal.

  2. around that same time I bought a couple Keller absterdes and donnhoff gg’s from 2008 and 2009. I opened my first about three years ago. The Keller was excellent but it was thicker and peachier / sweeter than the Alsatian which still mesmerizes me

  3. so my thought is in a perfect world I would age and find German gg’s that are from colder areas, maybe picked earlier, that although maybe are crazy harsh in their youth won’t be too thick and sweet in their old age. And maybe if I can find that I can come back to that amazing experience I had a long time ago

I’d love to hear some of the experienced people’s viewpoints on this.

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Was just exchanging with KP Keller about this subject, and he had some interesting comments, which he gave me permission to share:

Hard to generalize…
GG is a new name for what has been made seriously like mid/end 80s. Many dry Rieslings from excellent sites still are in excellent shape - wg 1990 Schlossberg Leitz, 1993 Hölle Künstler, 1990 Grünhaus Abtsberg, 1990 brudersberg Heyl zu Herrnsheim, 1990 Saumagen Köhler Rupprecht, 1990 gunderloch rothenberg etc etc

Our vineyards are cooler - we managed first in 1990 to reach 11,5 vol for dry Riesling, 12,0 in 1992. from this time climate change and lower yield helped a lot to get more inner depth and the necessary power to balance acidity.

Next step were the 2000s with outstanding 01,02,04,05(sometimes to soft and a bit too late harvested),07,09 …
After 2015 growers were thinking more about avoiding overripeness than fearing not to reach full maturity- it’s quite similar to Burgundy.

I think good GG vintages have the potential to age for 30,40 years- like good vintages for white Burgundy as well. They can close down when they are young but it’s not necessarily the case…- I would recommend to start drinking our GGs with 5-10 years of age as I think that with a bit of early maturity you get a better feeling for the soil. I would start drinking a von der Fels After 3,4 years - but it can also keep easily 20 years - it depends on personal preference and storage for sure.

I think it’s important to explain that GG is not something completely new- it’s just a new name for sth that started in the early 90s.

Also sweetness in wine does not always guarantee longevity- moderate yields, best soils and give them time in the cellar to develop slowly are very very important facts.

I think climate change helps to get perfectly mature grapes nearly every season - and the good growers have to adapt by shadowing, not trimming, high density plantings, new rootstocks etc.

I think dry German Riesling has never been better and more constant in quality than it is today - 30/40 years ago you needed 15/20 gr of sugar to balance often quite green and hard acidity - today acidity can still be high and phs under 3 at harvesting but the acids are riper and need not be balanced by sugar.

I am a great great fan of Kabinett young and mature - I love natural sweetness that does not really taste sweet any more like 10, 15 years like the best Prüm , Falkenstein, Willi Schäfer - that’s unique in style.
But I also love the GGs with there deeply mineral, stony elegance when they are 10,15 years old and are beautiful accompanying fish dishes, white meat etc

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Claus - I disagree and do not believe you. Please send me a few and I will let you know if I change my mind :slightly_smiling_face:

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Incredible amount of succinct info from KP. Thanks for posting. I agree with everything. And I have had many of the early Spätlese and Auslese Trocken from 83 onward and many have been stunning. I bought a huge amount of late 80/90s Müller Catoir trockens from an auction and all have been great. Interestingly they take about 30-60 minutes to open!

And lets not forgot about Kabinett Trocken. The 86s from JB Becker are legendary. And as I mentioned a recent 89 from Hans Kramp was truly profound.

As I have said many times I like drinking dry riesling across the entire aging spectrum but I should also add I buy more than a case of my favorites and several cases of Von der Fels every year.

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Based on the mag of Schonleber Sarah brought to my birthday last year, they are drinking very well.

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Due to unintelligent decisions from myself I have not many left but every time I open a 2007 Hermannshöhle, a 2009 Felseneck or a 2008 Halenberg I regret…
Sarah is more wise

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Great thread on an interesting topic.

This past year I came to terms with my enthusiasm for drinking kabinetts young. A few comments on this board made me feel better about that, or at least worry less about the missed opportunity of cellaring these wines for the long haul. I need to do a bit more due diligence of trying more kabinetts at various stages, and do the same study with GGs, which I’ve been buying to cellar but almost never drink…yet. I’ll need to look for some bottles at auction to test the waters instead of assuming I’ll like them best at 10+ years out.

From a storage perspective, I’ve made the unfortunate decision of basically buying double the Kabinetts (and feinherbs) that I like. This way I can drink a good amount young, while still socking away quite a few for aging.

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(From a quote by KP Keller) This is really an important point. As someone who hunts for older Trocken Rieslings (I only started collecting in earnest with the 2015 vintage) I’ve had very very limited success. There is almost nothing in the secondary market, which I always assumed meant that these were mostly getting consumed on the younger side.

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