Aging curves of top German GGs

WINE TALK
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A simple question for the German wine aficionados here:

At what point of their evolution do the best GGs show their best?

What are the various life stages of, say, a Keller Hubacker?

What can you expect in youth, gawky adolescence, and then full maturity?

One of the things I like about pradikat wines is that well-made ones can seemingly last decades and evolve. Is the same true for GG wines? How does the lack of residual sugar affect their aging vis a vis pradikat wines?

What will a 2021 Schaefer Frolich Felseneck GG taste like in 30 years vs when I open it tonight?

I know it’s a broad question. So thanks for any clarity you can provide.

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This one is sure to spark a nice debate but its a very valid set of questions. Here is my opinion :

The category of GG’s is pretty new (20 years or so) so the data is still coming in for most of us on aging potential. Also a challenge is the making of them has gotten better and more refined since the early 00’s when it started. For my favorite GG producers-Keller, Emrich Shonleber, Schaefer Frolich, Donhoff, Wittman -I think the range of 7-12 years is a good sweet spot. I also think after a few years in bottle (16,17,18 now) you can pull the cork give them a few hours of slow O and they are rock stars as well but perhaps not fully optimal. I am keeping some to age to the 15-20 year window to see what happens but I really enjoy these throughout the lifecycle (so far). I don’t hesitate to open the GG’s on the young side. Without a long history of info aging and what happens to these wines that have limited RS I think is mostly just personable preference.

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I second this, I think most of the input will
be preference based. I don’t enjoy GG Riesling with a ton of age, 4-5 years is my sweet spot where they’ve had a chance to unwind a bit, but are still fruit forward. I get a gaggy sensation when the fruit falls away and you’re left with acid and oxidation as has been my experience when old high acid, dry white wine.

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My own view is other than a few select examples that do shut down hard (e.g. Breuer Schlossberg, a few of the top Kellers) I enjoy drinking GGs across their full life span.

It is very hard to make generalizations because every region and vintage is different. I just participated in a fairly geeky tasting of 2005 GGs and the Nahe wines were stunning, I will say not better than in their youth or mid-life but a number of non-Nahe were more advanced than they should be at this stage. As Adam said the GG class has only been around 20 years or so and individual producers are constantly making changes in farming and winemaking.

I have drunk a fair bit of older Spätlese and Auslese Trocken from the 80s & 90s over the years and have had some stunning bottles so I do believe if you liked the tertiary umami characteristics in older dry riesling you will be rewarded for cellaring them.

Lastly one way I have started to think about this if you like aged GGs, then drink the mid-level wines like Keller Von der Fels or Emrich-Schonleber Mineral which are typically made from GG fruit from young vines and are great to drink in years 1-5 while you are waiting for your GGs to age.

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I’d second most of this. I’ve opened a number of 2-6 year old GGs from Keller and Breuer that have been completely shut-down. Also Haart, Kilburg etc for that matter. Other than trying the wine at or shortly after release (preferably at a tasting) I leave them for at least 7-8 years before starting to dip into them. In the mean time I drink older vintages or Von der Fels/Terra Montosa. You can of course get lucky but I think it’s a shame to chance it when there’s such a high risk of meeting a closed bottle. There are a number of producers who make more forthcoming wines that you can happily drink pretty much at any point, but with these I think it’s best to wait.

Oh, and I should add that if you want to get a sense of how older dry Riesling can age, you can always dip into Breuer. I’ve had bottles from the early 80s that have been stunning, and you can occasionally find them at a surprisingly reasonable price in restaurants, at least in Germany and Scandinavia.

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I share Robert’s views but would add that the Keller Von der Fels can age quite well too (he didn’t say they couldn’t, rather expressing a preference when he felt they drank well).

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I definitely agree Von der Fels can age well. I still have a stash of 04 & 05.

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Thanks to all of you for thoughtful responses. Maybe it’s confirmation bias, but many of the GGs remind me a bit of Burgundy — where you drink either early for the fruit or 10 years later for the complexity/nuance.

But it seems I shouldn’t be embarrased about grip-and-rip on some of the 21 GCs I bought.

Eat dessert first, right? :kissing_heart:

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The residually sweet Mosel Rieslings deemed classic today by many producers and connoisseurs are often at their best either early on or only after ten or more years in bottle. :wink:

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I dunno, we had recently a comparative tasting of 2021 GGs and for the most I thought “Wow, this is probably good” - meaning that with almost all the wines I really couldn’t get a full picture of the wine because they were still either so closed, so primary or so awkward and all over the place. Of the ten wines, probably one or two were drinking pretty nicely right now.

But I guess all that boils down to your preference. For me, most of them drink like an entry-level Riesling, only with more power and concentration. However, they didn’t really offer much more pleasure than a similarly aged simple Riesling trocken would’ve. IMO, the thing that makes GG Rieslings so great emerges only with age - when the wines are still too young, they offer very little of the potential greatness that resides in them.

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I have no basis to judge this yet but this metaphor really stuck with me. https://www.wineberserkers.com/t/tn-checking-out-how-2020-gg-rieslings-are-coming-along/297439/18?

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I think it’s hard to generalize across the category when there are reasonably important differences in residual sugar, free sulfites, and closure between producers within the same category…

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A suggestions if you can, try a young GG next to a mid-level wine (same vintage) made by the same producer.

Schafer-Fröhlich Felseneck and Schiefergestein would be a good because is entirely from Felseneck and half the price of the GG.

See which one you like more and if you see a large step up in the GG.

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Yes, from a rational point of view. But this is Berserkers! Home of generalizations and irrational exuberance. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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The 2007´s and 2008´s are about to enter the zone (Breuer, Schönleber, Dönnhoff, Keller…)

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I see your point Otto.

I have friends who are not shy about opening up Grand Cru red Burgundy two years after release. Typically I think they are nuts, finding the brooding wine is all about power and possibility, not immediate pleasure.

But every once in a while, these babies are a cornucopia of fruit and breeding/class.

I suppose it’s like William opines … it all varies based on site and material and winemaking.

As in most aspects of fine wine: It all depends …

Which means I’m basically chasing my tail here with OP. Thanks for indulging me.

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So I’ll give my theory with some facts but I’d love to hear people’s opinions of my thoughts

  1. I went to Alsace around 2009 and in a random store there was an Alsatian dry Riesling (sipp was the producer) that this store had 20 vintages of. I should have bought the entire lot and shipped it home but I bought the oldest one which was like a 1968 but I forget the exact year. I opened back home about a month later and it was the most transparent, clear as a bell, white wine I probably ever had. Not viscous a bit. It was unreal.

  2. around that same time I bought a couple Keller absterdes and donnhoff gg’s from 2008 and 2009. I opened my first about three years ago. The Keller was excellent but it was thicker and peachier / sweeter than the Alsatian which still mesmerizes me

  3. so my thought is in a perfect world I would age and find German gg’s that are from colder areas, maybe picked earlier, that although maybe are crazy harsh in their youth won’t be too thick and sweet in their old age. And maybe if I can find that I can come back to that amazing experience I had a long time ago

I’d love to hear some of the experienced people’s viewpoints on this.

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Was just exchanging with KP Keller about this subject, and he had some interesting comments, which he gave me permission to share:

Hard to generalize…
GG is a new name for what has been made seriously like mid/end 80s. Many dry Rieslings from excellent sites still are in excellent shape - wg 1990 Schlossberg Leitz, 1993 Hölle Künstler, 1990 Grünhaus Abtsberg, 1990 brudersberg Heyl zu Herrnsheim, 1990 Saumagen Köhler Rupprecht, 1990 gunderloch rothenberg etc etc

Our vineyards are cooler - we managed first in 1990 to reach 11,5 vol for dry Riesling, 12,0 in 1992. from this time climate change and lower yield helped a lot to get more inner depth and the necessary power to balance acidity.

Next step were the 2000s with outstanding 01,02,04,05(sometimes to soft and a bit too late harvested),07,09 …
After 2015 growers were thinking more about avoiding overripeness than fearing not to reach full maturity- it’s quite similar to Burgundy.

I think good GG vintages have the potential to age for 30,40 years- like good vintages for white Burgundy as well. They can close down when they are young but it’s not necessarily the case…- I would recommend to start drinking our GGs with 5-10 years of age as I think that with a bit of early maturity you get a better feeling for the soil. I would start drinking a von der Fels After 3,4 years - but it can also keep easily 20 years - it depends on personal preference and storage for sure.

I think it’s important to explain that GG is not something completely new- it’s just a new name for sth that started in the early 90s.

Also sweetness in wine does not always guarantee longevity- moderate yields, best soils and give them time in the cellar to develop slowly are very very important facts.

I think climate change helps to get perfectly mature grapes nearly every season - and the good growers have to adapt by shadowing, not trimming, high density plantings, new rootstocks etc.

I think dry German Riesling has never been better and more constant in quality than it is today - 30/40 years ago you needed 15/20 gr of sugar to balance often quite green and hard acidity - today acidity can still be high and phs under 3 at harvesting but the acids are riper and need not be balanced by sugar.

I am a great great fan of Kabinett young and mature - I love natural sweetness that does not really taste sweet any more like 10, 15 years like the best Prüm , Falkenstein, Willi Schäfer - that’s unique in style.
But I also love the GGs with there deeply mineral, stony elegance when they are 10,15 years old and are beautiful accompanying fish dishes, white meat etc

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Claus - I disagree and do not believe you. Please send me a few and I will let you know if I change my mind :slightly_smiling_face:

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Incredible amount of succinct info from KP. Thanks for posting. I agree with everything. And I have had many of the early Spätlese and Auslese Trocken from 83 onward and many have been stunning. I bought a huge amount of late 80/90s Müller Catoir trockens from an auction and all have been great. Interestingly they take about 30-60 minutes to open!

And lets not forgot about Kabinett Trocken. The 86s from JB Becker are legendary. And as I mentioned a recent 89 from Hans Kramp was truly profound.

As I have said many times I like drinking dry riesling across the entire aging spectrum but I should also add I buy more than a case of my favorites and several cases of Von der Fels every year.

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