After a great discussion about Meursault and Puligny Montrachet, I'm hoping peeps can discuss what a

Nick_Gangas · February 19, 2012, 1:27am

Has anyone had the version by Pierre Yves Colin Morey ? I have a few on order but haven’t tried one yet.

Diane_Elam · February 19, 2012, 1:50am

I think of it as chablis with shoulder pads.

Keith, nice fractal.

dcornutt · February 19, 2012, 11:49am

They are excellent. More fine French oak when young than some would like but this absorbs quickly.

Chris_Kravitz · February 19, 2012, 1:52pm

I often find a piney/resinous quality that is distinctly CC. I’ve IDed CC blind many times because of this quality.

Lots of mention (deservedly) for Bonneau du Martray which because of it’s large production is more readily available and affordable and a classic well balanced delineated wine.

I’ve had so many great wines from Louis Latour who also owns a large parcel, usually riper and fatter than BdM.Large production = lower prices.

Coche’s CC is magical Chardonnay and unfortunately gotten to a level of pricing that makes it untouchable. The 3-4 vintages I have had (early 90’s) have been about as compelling as young white burg can be.

I think my biggest disappointment in the AC is from Roumier, I don’t know if it’s the terroir or there brilliant winemaking doesn’t extent to whites.

I quite enjoyed Jadot’s 07 last night, at first I found it flabby without much depth but an hour later the wine firmed up with a chalky backbone and a cooked lemon quality. (A-)

Being the geek that you are you’ll want to know that there is also Corton en Charlemagne which I believe could best be described as an LD within a grand cru (I can’t come up with another instance like this, it’s Burgundy) maybe a more enlightened poster can fill us in. I believe Jadot produces one.

I also believe that Corton/Charlemagne is huge (largest GC?) and siting matters more than with other grand crus.

Kim_Caldwell · February 19, 2012, 3:15pm

Wonderful info from all. Thank you.

Jeremy - Peeps = people. I’m lazy when typing on the iPad.

Chris - From Jasper Morris- There are 2 specific Charlemagne vineyards, En Charlemagne and Le Charlamagne, making up half the appellation, while white grapes grown in 7 other vineyards may also be sold as CC.

En Charlemagne - At the border with Aloxe Corton the hillsides faces west and fine, racy white wines can be made. But the GC appellation has been extended right up to the village of Pernand itself, by which time the exposition is north-west and the valley has become noticeably more enclosed. The final sector was only promoted in 1966 and probably should not have been.

Le Charlemagne- This is the absolute heartland of the appellation, facing south-west, thus avoiding the risk of over ripeness which can afflict the vines exposed due south.

Louis Latour or Bonneau du Martray as largest CC proprietor? Conflicting info out there.

From Clive Coates- CC is quite a different wine from the GC’s of Puligny and Chassagne. There should be a steely backbone, a raciness, which fleetingly suggests a GC Chablis. There will probably be a higher acidity. There should certainly be a certain austerity and a need for long aging, as much as a decade, before the wine comes round. This will not be because it has the pent-up concentrated intensity of a Montrachet- it won’t quite have that - but because it is a wine of sufficient size, depth and structure to require sufficient time to round off.

Frank_Murray_III · February 19, 2012, 3:25pm

With all this talk about Coche, I was thinking of enjoying my 04 Latour tonight but maybe I should hide my face in the corner when I open it!

Peter_Chiu · February 19, 2012, 3:32pm

I agree…

Nick_Gangas · February 19, 2012, 3:35pm

So here’s a question I’ve never seen asked ? Who has the best parcels in CC ?

By the way, great thread Kim.

Andrew_Nielsen1 · February 19, 2012, 3:50pm

I am biased but the Bize CC is very good. The 2010 and 2011’s are racy as all get-up!

Peter_Chiu · February 19, 2012, 3:52pm

Louis Latour or Bonneau du Martray as largest CC proprietor? Conflicting info out there.

Yes - Coates ( in his 1st Edition of Cote dOr ) - Bonneau de Martray : 9.50 ha and L.Latour : 9.00 ha.

J. Morris ( in his Inside Burgundy ) - Bonneau de Martray : 9.50 ha and L.Latour : 9.65 ha.

Peter_Chiu · February 19, 2012, 3:55pm

Great question !

In Quebec, Canada the most reasonable priced CC is ( by far and without a doubt ) : Dubreuil-Fontaine.

Peter_Chiu · February 19, 2012, 3:57pm

Jeremy Holmes:

We can generalise about Corton-Charlemagne as we love to generalise about most things and to me generally CC has a scent and taste of preserved lemons and good minerality. It is fun when first released as the wine’s glycerol sheathes the high tensile spine but is the Grand Cru white that perhaps shuts down the hardest (perhaps it doesn’t really and I’m just imagining it).

Producer, like every village in Burgundy, is the key and I’ve tried to give a brief synopsis of my thoughts on the producers I’ve had some exposure to.

Coche-Dury: Simply stunning, one of the greatest wines of Burgundy. Some believe that the wines are heavily stylised but they are in fact pure, dense and chalky with great intensity and concentration. They always show the typical Coche smoky/flintiness on the nose and are made like red wine with big dry extract on the finish.

Bonneau du Martray: The largest vineyard holder here and the wines are readily available. Certainly had some premox issues through 96-04 but the wines are very good. Quite fine, floral and steely in their youth. The wines of the 80’s are superb with wines such as the 85 and 88 still on an upwards trajectory.

Faiveley: Big, rich, oaky wines that have a hint of the exotic and are quite broad shouldered. Perhaps look a little ‘Batard like’ at times.

Bouchard Pere et Fils: I have really liked the 04-08 on release. These are wines of good line. They have plenty of oak but excellent fruit that is commensurate with levels of new oak. The jury is out as to whether premox issues have been sorted out as the 02’s were problematic.

Leroy: To me these wines are quite stylised. They are big and smoky (almost in a Montrachet kind of way) and have plenty of candied and exotic, ripe fruit notes. They are muscular wines that take many years to unfurl.

Great comments and info …Jeremy.

John_Gilman · February 19, 2012, 5:33pm

Hi Folks,

When it comes to Corton-Charlemagne, I think it is very important to remember that the extreme variation in expositon plays a tremendous role in defining the stylistic profile of the wine- bending from a southeasterly focus in the lieux a dits of Le Corton and the upper section of Renardes, to a due south orientation on the near side of the hill in Aloxe in the lieux a dits of Languettes and Pougets, all through the westerly and southwesterly orientations in the traditoinally best Aloxe section of the vineyard in Le Charlemagne itself. With global warming, the more directly southern expositions may have gotten a bit more billowy in their fruit components in the last decade- certainly in riper vintages like 2005, 2006 and 2009, this section of the hill has seemed less favored for making great CC, but parcels in this location may well have been considered an advantage a generation or two ago, when the climate was cooler and it was often a bit of a struggle to fully ripen up one’s vines in Corton-Charlemagne. Across the border in Pernand-Vergelesses, in the vineyard of En Charlemagne, the orientation swings from due west on the Aloxe border all the way through northwest and almost NNW in the far end of the vineyard. This was always the coolest section of Corton-Charlemagne historically, and for a long time this was considered the least advantaged section- particularly as the far end of the parcel nearest the village of Pernand, where it was really marginal climate to ripen chardonnay consistently each year. But, again, with global warming, this area is getting better and better in terms of thorough ripeness each and every year, and it may be that this section becomes the “plum” part of the hill for producing CC as the years go by and the seasosns continue to creep up incrementally in temperature. What is important to keep in mind is that there are very dramatic differences between the wine produced in en Charlemagne (particularly the more northerly side) than there is in Pougets for instance, in the heart of the Aloxe side of the hill. One is always going to get a much more steely, chalky and minerally interpretation from vines in en Charlemagne, with more yellow fruit and citrus peel elements, while in vineyards like Pougets and Languettes, there is a much more generous pear, apple and tangerine aspect to the fruit and less overtly mineral or stony expressions of terroir.

Almost as important is where in each lieu a dit one has vines, for the topsoils are decidedly different as one descends from sections at the top of the hill down towards the lower ends of each lieu a dit on the slope. There is a lot more limestone up high, with a clay, chalky marl laid over the base of hard limestone quite at variance with the deeper clay and more iron-laced soils towards the bottomw of each lieux a dit. Within Aloxe, in the lieux a dits of Le Corton and Renardes, the topsoil issue is less important, as it is only at the top that chardonnay can be planted and sold as Corton-Charelmagne, but as one wraps around the hillside towards Les Languettes and Pougets, there is a much wider possibility for variations of topsoil. Vines lower down in these vineyards are going to produce more fruit-driven wines- further up will be a bit racier in style, even wtih the due south or southwesterly orientations. The same is true in Le Charlemagne itself, with the racy examples hailing from parcels further up towards the top of the hill of Corton.

I do not know where all of the major producers have vines on the hill, but for example, at Bonenau de Martray, the wines have always been stylistically defined by their significant percentage of Pernand fruit in the cuvee- this is what has produced the great chalky base of minerality in the wines and the real spine of acidity when they are young that for long has been the calling card of the Corton-Charlemagne from this estate. Bonneau du Martray is fortunate to have very large and contiguous plots in Le Charlemagne in Aloxe and En Charlemagne in Pernand, so that they get a combination of the racy minerality from the Pernand parcels and a bit more ripe fruit in their plots from Le Charlemagne in Aloxe (though their vines in Le Charlemagne are on the Pernand border and face due west and are a touch less fruit-driven than examples from sections of Le Charlemagne over closer to Pougets that slide around a bit more towards a southwesterly exposition and have deeper soils). Many people often cite the Bonneau du Martray as the most quintessential example of CC for this reason- their plots are pretty equally split between Le Charelmagne and En Charlemagne and really deliver a lovely synthesis of these two superb lieux a dits. But, given that so much of the Corton-Charlemagne appellation is spread over slightly warmer sites, it is hard to really say that this is the classic example- better to say it is the classic example of Corton-Charlie from the Pernand side of the hill. Someone like Christophe Roumier, whos vines are at the far side of En Charlemagne in Pernand and where the plot is decidedly cooler and more marginal for ripening, has a decidedly different profile to his CC and it is only in the riper years (the 1992 for instance, was absolutely sublime out of the blocks) that this wine offers up any generosity at all in its youth. More often, it is tight, closed and modestly yellow fruity in style, with white flowers and a boatload of chalky minerality. The wine looks to be short of fruit early on in comparison to its soil component, but it blossoms very well if one has the possiblity to age it for an extended period of time (the '93 for instance was tensile and almost painful to drink young, but became superb at age ten and is still a beauitful drink). But, I have no doubt that Christophe (or any grower with vines on that far side of the vineyard near the village of Pernand) would happily swap parcels with Bonneau du Martray and get over on the Aloxe end of the lieu a dit of En Charlemagne.

Louis Latour’s holdings are much more in the heart of the Aloxe side of the hill, and so have always represented a riper, more fruit-driven style of Corton Charlie. Certainly in their heyday these wines were never short for soil signature as well, but there is a lot more early fruit present than in Bonneau du Martray wines. I have not tasted the Latour CC in many years, but back in the old days (pre-1995) they made another absolutely reference point Corton-Charlemagne in the fleshier style of Aloxe fruit. These wines still had a great base of soil to them as well- but the soils are more subservient on this side of the hill to the beauitful fruit tones found here in the wines when young. It is only when they have had very extended bottle age that the two sides of the hill start to stylistically come together more- I have a pretty hard time telling apart a CC from Bonneau du Martray and Latour from the decades of the '60s or '70s if served blind- whereas when the wines are younger, the styles are quite dissimilar and much easier to pick out (part of this of course is the much higher percentage of new toasty oak used by the house of Latour for their CC). Louis Jadot’s superb Corton-Charlemagne also comes from the Aloxe side of the hill, and again shows more of the pear and tangerine type fruit tones than one finds over the border in Pernand. While I am not certain, based on style, I would assume that Coche-Dury’s CC comes from Aloxe fruit as well.

While folks in previous posts mentioned several of the very best examples of Corton-Charlemagne, there are a couple more that also deserve kudos for their quality. Michel Juillot, whose parcel lies adjacent to that of Coche-Dury, has made some absolutely brilliant examples of Corton-Charlemagne in the past (have not tated any in recent years). Maison Joseph Drouhin has also always made pretty good Corton Charlie- from a blend of their own vines and purchased juice- but the quality has skyrocketed for their “estate bottled” Corton Charlie in the last two vintages. The domaine has decided to stop blending their own production from their parcel with that of the purchased juice, so that now there are two bottlnigs of Drouhin Corton-Charlemagne and the estate bottling is absolutely brilliant now. Folks do not talk about their CC too much in the same breath with the very best producers, but since 2009, the new estate bottling is one to keep an eye out for, as the quality has simply soared!

All the Best,

John

alan_weinberg · February 19, 2012, 8:47pm

brilliant exposition,John, as we have come to expect from you. Love those details.
alan

Nick_Gangas · February 19, 2012, 9:42pm

Thank you John. Your usual brilliant self. This stuff alone makes the subscription to your newsletter a bargain.

M_Kelly · February 19, 2012, 11:24pm

[if we go to Alan wongs in Hawaii we can get 07 and 08 coche Charlie for under $800! I wanted to take them home but they wouldn’t let me purchase and take it [/quote]

Ha! I tried too, at Xmas!

Kim_Caldwell · February 19, 2012, 11:45pm

Thanks, John.

Peter_Chiu · February 20, 2012, 12:03am

1 …and - thanks John.

paul_hanna · February 20, 2012, 1:41am

Agree.

Coche is the absolute pinnacle for me, and our recent tasting confirmed this. Boillot not far behind, very very smart wines. Leroy is a different expression, and is a style that is sure to polarize some…

Love BdM, one of the best in value for money, old ones can be fantastic and live for a very long time, still showing their mineral side. Jury still out on recent vintages which don’t seem to be quite in the same league, with questions over premox…

Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow · February 20, 2012, 2:48pm

Christophe Roumier, whose mother, a Ponnelle, bought some vines or inherited them long after divorcing his father, does have a non-star site for CC. But, like John says, it is mainly age that is required. They don’t show flashy or young vis a vis others’ examples. And, I’ve not had many mature ones. So, I am in the group that thinks it isn’t a star (though no Coche wines are stars in my galaxy; I am not a fan of what the guy does to the wines to make them in his signature style, though I recognize he does get good fruit).