A difference i've noticed between even good quality villages and 1st cru

[wbkeene]

/bubbles

[MChang]

The 82 was weird, the cork came out super fast like a champagne cork (with the knockoff Durand) so I was wondering whether it would be sound but the wine was beautiful; definitely needed more time. Opening my last 82 HB this fall (probably with 82 PLL)

[Terry_H_a_r_r_i_s]

A few have mentioned it, but I suspect the impact the wine’s alcohol, tannins, acids, etc., have on one’s taste receptors in the mouth play an important role in how our bottles of wine “develop” over the course of an evening. I certainly feel that is the case with the bottle(s) I consume over 4 to 6 hours any evening. And that first sip? Quite often the worst.

[Steve_McL]

I’ve not seen red or white Burgundy improve after being open a day.

Occasionally, like once a year, (maybe 1 in 200) I’ve seen a good quality, red taste better to me a day or two later on Coravin.

19 Drouhin Amoureuses, 09 Fourrier Gevrey, 09 Fourrier Griottes.

I don’t think that’s a commentary on the producers. It’s just what I turned up with a quick search in my CT notes. Also, I like Fourrier and Drouhin.

I hypothesize that it’s due to a tiny bit of favorable breathing perhaps? It’s an outlier for me. In contrast, on Coravin I personally find most wines are less fresh even as early as day 2.

Not trying to open a can of Coravin worms, just relating my experience.

[RichardFlack]

Speaking of which, I will often decant very young whites say half an hour before serving to assist in the opening up. The nature of a dinner often limits the opportunity to open up in the glass.

[MChang]

FWIW, when I have opened wines the next day they were vacuvined and put in the fridge.

[maureen_nelson]

@Howard_Cooper

German wines can often last for a few days

I agree with Howard (amazing, I know) - and I also think red burgundy benefits with decanting (not talking for hours - I usually decant just before I sit down to dinner, unless I am taking something with lots of sediment out to dinner, in which case I return the wine to bottle and pull the cork once seated) but IMHO red burg only deteriorates after the first night.

[Mikael_OB]

@Howard_Cooper

I have never had a Burgundy, red or white, that did not drop off the day after it was opened. I have had some California Cabernet that was actually better the next day (for example a bottle of Dominus that was probably 15-20 years old but was still too young).

What wines are you drinking that do not deteriorate after a few days?

That’s a good question.

I will perhaps not write too detailed about Nebbiolo wines, however many! Sandri is notorious for keeping and pouring open bottles in his winery - we’re not talking about days… The Nebbiolos and Dolcetto hold up. Nada Fiorenzo and Colla (from the 90s, decanted or PnP), Cavallotto LN/Freisa. Principiano’s wines. Alto Piemonte wines like Le Piane (older from 90s decanted), Colombera & Garella.

A few that have deteriorates more than ones (not necessarily in every vintage) - Burlotto, Ca del Baio, Vietti, La ca Nova…

Sangiovese - many CC from the likes of Caparsa, Istine, Castell’in Villa rarely deteriorates the next day,

Foradori’s Teraldego, the 2016 Sgarzon was one of my WsOTY ( WsOTY -- 2023 Edition and your Discovery of the Year--TABULATIONS COMPLETE - #164 by Mikael_OB ) - PnP, should have decanted… “To me this, after the funk and I don’t know what blew off on the second night is the best Foradori wine. It knocked me out of my socks and I cursed myself for pouring two large pours the first night.”

Ronchi di Cialla’s Schioppettino, well basically all their red wines (and many white). Refosco and Teran wines in general often keep powering on.

I mentioned Baudry - the 2013 La Croix Boissée (drank it recently), also the 2014 le Domaine (2016) - better on day two when the bret was not detectable on the second day and thought it was a very nice wine for the price. Happy to drink the Grézeaux over a few days from memory.

Also think Eric Texier’s wines often either improves or does not deteriorate by day two, like a 2013 Eric Texier Côtes du Rhône Saint-Julien-en-Saint-Alban (drank 2024 PnP) - “Getting better by the day open (3rd night). Violets, darker fruits, freshness and acidity with grippy tannins. Sapidity, meatiness. Long finish.”.

PN / Spatburgunder:

• I mentioned Roty and Lecheneaut (posted about them here in 2021 Burgundy - Lecheneaut & Roty ), they both held up well developed, and switch taste profiles (from darker to red and the other developed the other way around). PnP. They were perhaps the exceptions for PN… Bart stands out from memory for deteriorating and I believe the collective wisdom about PN here is reasonable.
• Enderle & Moll PnP usually don’t deteriorate by day 2 (also rarely improves).
• Mobitz’s wines (red/white) last without deteriorate, same goes for Ziereisen’sd PNs.

Chardonnay:

Burgundy/Chablis Bessin (-Tremblay) - believe most were PnP:

• - 2020 Domaine Bessin-Tremblay Chablis Vieilles Vignes (drank in 2024): Razor sharp, this is really nice and best on day 3. Salinity, lemon and what a terrific drive and tension. Some smokiness. Long electrifying finish. Wish I bought more…
• 2019 Bessin Chablis 1er Cru Montmains (drank in 2024-6): Tight. Chalky, lemon and almond. Acidic and a very long finish. Pow (like a text box in popping up in old batman series).
• 2015 Jean-Claude Bessin Chablis 1er Cru Fourchaume (drank in 2021): Very tight the first night, much more enjoyable the second night. Lemon, quite structured, good acidity. Nothing overripe here. Minerality, long salivating finish that just keeps on. Almost a kind of smokiness. Keeps on being the same over 3 days

2023 Jean-Marc Vincent Santenay Les Vignes Denses (decanted) - From memory this wine far from deteriorated by day two (loved this).

Agree with Riesling (and other white) wines, at the very least drink as well on the following days. I loved how a Falkenstein left in the fridge for weeks showed - much related to the texture (silkiness). Recall that Lars liked the spritz in the beginning

[Howard_Cooper]

I love half bottles. Great villages burg that can be found in half bottles is Rossignol-Trapet Gevrey Chambertin.

[Rahsaan_M]

So much discussion in multiple threads about these issues and words like “improves” or “deteriorate” mask the subjectivity behind such pronouncements.

@Mikael_OB

Enderle & Moll PnP usually don’t deteriorate by day 2 (also rarely improves).

This is surely because you enjoy oxidative and VA notes in wines, as you have mentioned before? I may not have kept current with all the E&M wines. But in the past they would sometimes deteriorate if you looked at them the wrong way, even in the first few hours!

[Mikael_OB]

@Rahsaan_M

So much discussion in multiple threads about these issues and words like “improves” or “deteriorate” mask the subjectivity behind such pronouncements.

@Mikael_OB

Enderle & Moll PnP usually don’t deteriorate by day 2 (also rarely improves).

This is surely because you enjoy oxidative and VA notes in wines, as you have mentioned before? I may not have kept current with all the E&M wines. But in the past they would sometimes deteriorate if you looked at them the wrong way, even in the first few hours!

Indeed quite subjective, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle (?).

E&M is probably the worst example I could give (especially for a US base), yet at the same time it’s been true for me. I have a quite wide appreciation for different wines, likely to have a higher tolerance for VA (no specific relation to oxidative wines I guess).

I think of the misfortunes of Tom Hill and European wines made in a “natural” wine direction… When I have had the same wines in Europe and my bottles have been terrific.

More or less every bottle of E&M have been bought on release (2015-18), transported when temperatures are modest, and kept in my cellar. 2017 is a vintage where the second night is a gamble.

Of the 2015s and 2018s, I have had off bottles - one of each - drank in total ~30, a majority being the 2015s (off from opening, didn’t fall apart). Not a single off bottle from 2016 (have notes of opening 25). This only applies for PN… The whites and sparkling can be more variable and inconsistent vintage dependent, yet when they get it right the white/amber wines are delicious.

[Arv_R]

@Mike_Ge

I typically drink 1st cru red as that’s my sweet spot but occasionally I’ll do village wines that purportedly box above their weight, namely premium lieu dits. One thing I notice is that while both often deliver a very good first nite experience the villages tend to trail off a bit more on the second and third nite compared to the premiere. It’s like ultimately the site quality limits the longevity once the bottle has opened. I don’t use a Corvin and reseal the bottle but that’s another discussion. Anyone notice a similar effect?

Maybe it’s a varietal / Burgundy thing? I tend to consume red Rhones / red Bordeaux over three days, typically at age 10-20 years, and most of the time I like the second night the best.

By the way, your pictures of fish suppers are great!

[KThrane]

This is the way imo. That small pour does ingress some oxygen into the wine, which is quite important for the slow ox method. agreed