Picked up some Olga Raffault because of this thread. I was surprised that it looks like many of their '16 and '17s have yet to be released. I realized long before this thread that I love Loire reds and didn’t have enough. Thanks for helping me remedy that. My top wine from '19 was probably 1988 C.P. Breton Chinon Beaumont that I picked up from Envoyer for pennies.
They have always released late.
Have you had a chance to try anything from Alliet? Very clean, pyrazine-free wines that still exhibit a lot of the savory flavors that distinguish Loire cf, at least imho. They really seem like they’d align well with your tastes. I kind of wonder whether amirault may be trying to move in a similar direction.
I realize that this might take this thread in a different direction than perhaps intended…but a large part of the appeal of the Loire for me is its LACK of such a classification.
There are by all means some truly special vineyards, but it’s already possible to appreciate those sites without the overlay of a ranking system. Could be I just like the anarchy for its own sake…but I also think that it accurately mirrors how the vignerons there may see themselves, i.e. not so much all in one big race to the top, but clusters of producers each going their various ways. Vive la différence, non?
This is a great point.
I don’t want to speak for other participants, and certainly not Julian (who proposed the idea and started the thread), but I think the motivating idea was one of discovering how much consensus there is among board participants, as opposed to the creation of some kind of official imprimatur that could be stamped on labels. At least that’s how I’ve read it—the Bordeaux classification analogy is more of a plot device than anything else.
That said, I’d like to reformulate your question a bit. Given the elevation of Rougeard and the success of the Foucault disciples, and given the success of producers like Baudry in building an audience, fighting their way onto restaurant lists, etc.—can an “anarchic” orientation still prevail? Or could there be a homogenizing effect?
With the exception of Rougeard, IMHO this thread mostly shows what a toss up it is between preferences for quality Loire Red producers. I’ve found it good fun and a window in to some great QPRs. Been exploring more Alliet and Joguet wines. There’s a bottle of 2015 Joguet La Cure in the Fridge right now and it’s quite satisfying!
RT
Hi all,
Elliot, you got it. As I wrote in the first sentence “There has never been a classification of Loire wines and there probably never will be, which is just as well for our wallets.”!
It was just a means of pooling resources and experiences. Many are new to Loire reds and it’s tough deciding which ones to try. Whereas some regions have a plethora of critics, far too many even, others are almost completely ignored - the Loire being one of the latter. Chris Kissack does an excellent job but he’s on his own, in every way, although Vinous is supposed to be publishing a report sometime soon. There are dozens of very experienced and talented tasters on WB who can provide great insight.
The Loire is a bit anarchic, and that is part of its appeal, I agree: there are practically no corporate owners, producers are very much free to do what they like, unless they offend the dreaded INAO. This means great dynamism and diversity of styles and tastes. But a lot of that anarchy is just B.S. - who would seriously want to sell their “Cuvée du Chien Fou” for 5 euros if they could sell a La Charpentrie for 55 euros? Just like anywhere else, prices create an unofficial classification - but what is interesting is getting to know which producers are making 55 euros quality wine for 20 euros - people like Raffault, for example.
Of course it’s not all about money - the fun part is understanding which wines are likely to be to one’s own taste, without having to buy a case and wait for ten years. By reading people’s comments and suggestions here, you can get a pretty good idea of which producers are traditional, for example, and which are not. Likewise, you can see that some producers’ top wines are not necessarily everyone’s favourites, because the Loire is in fact closer to the Burgundy model than the Bordeaux one.
Another problem in the Loire is the lack of older vintages available for verticals. Unlike in Bordeaux, a journalist visiting the Loire is unlikely to be able to taste a massive number of older vintages, because most producers need to sell as much as they can. Chris Kissack’s tastings of older vintages come almost always from his own cellar. So if there are few professional reviews of new releases, there are practically none of older ones. So again, the insight of WB tasters is invaluable.
So yes, that was my original intention, to gather information and form a mutually beneficial consensus, nothing more. Apart from us, nobody else is going to read this stuff!
But as Richard rightly says, even the idea of a consensus has been shown as B.S.! For every berserker who prefers a Clos de la Dioterie, there will be another who prefers a Chêne Vert, or a Clos de L’Echo over a Coteau de Noiré - but the point is knowing why! That is the value of this thread IMHO.
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I have not! But thank you for the tip, I’ll absolutely keep my eyes open.
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So, we had our first experience with Baudry last night when we opened a bottle of 2015 Le Clos Guillot. Based on this experience, Baudry wouldn’t make any sort of ranking in our house. The wine was undrinkable due to a heavy amount of dirty, smelly Brett - not the pleasant kind. We dumped it. We have one more bottle, but our general rule is that we don’t buy from producers once we’ve encountered heavy Brett in a bottle. Just not a risk we’re willing to take.
Decided to pop a bottle of Savage Grace Copeland Vineyard CF instead, which was lithe, perfumed, silky, and gorgeous. Not sure if any of you have tried it, but it’s cheap and delicious Loire-style CF.
Troy what other Loire CFs do you drink?
The honest answer is “not many.” We’re much more experienced with Loire Chenin, than CF, but have recently started exploring Loire reds as the prices on our favorite red burgs continue to climb into the stratosphere. So far, our favorites have been Olga Raffault and Antoine Sanzay, who both seem to make “clean” wines.
We don’t mind, in fact we like, a touch of stems or green pepper/pyrazine, but Brett is a deal breaker for us. If Brett is typical of Baudry, we’ll stay away. Would appreciate knowing other producers we might like given our aversion to Brett.
Thanks in advance!
That’s ironic, Raffault. I love love Raffault but it generally has a much higher incidence of Brett than other more new generation producers, and I include Baudry in that. I find Baudry to be quite clean, and I drink tons of it. Now mind you, I’m a bit more Brett tolerant than most and do like some funk, I just don’t find much of it in Baudry. I would encourage you to try another, like the Croix Boissee and see if you just had an off-bottle. It could be that you just got a stank bottle, or are just really are Brett intolerant, sorta the way I am with new oak, American oak and high ABV.
And good luck, it’s a wonderful region to explore! I think Domaine Roche Neuve (Thierry Germain) night for your bill. For my palate, his wines are super clean. And tasty. He’s on a serious upswing in quality and picking up truly killer vineyards.
Thanks for the suggestion. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Our breadth of experience with any one producer is very limited, so it could simply be that the bottle of Raffault we had was as uncharacteristically clean as the Baudry was dirty. We have another bottle of the Baudry, so perhaps that one will be better, but due to our disdain for Brett, they will be the last bottles we purchase. Perhaps we’ll steer clear of Raffault, as well.
Curious about Breton - are the wines clean or no?
I’ve certainly been accused of taking things too literally in the past - but yeah, I think I saw that it was more about “what’s the consensus on top producers” than about lobbying the INAO! 
On to the question you asked…“Can an anarchic orientation still prevail?” I think so! For one, everyone’s responses show how wide a spectrum there is of preferred styles, and on a similar token a wide spectrum of tolerance for brett. Such a broad and varied consumer response would seem to leave it wide open to vignerons to stretch out in all sorts of stylistic directions. The biggest influence of such folks like Rougeard - or even lower down the cost ladder, someone like Alliet, who openly names Bordeaux as a big influence in his approach - is that their success pushes all producers towards better quality: more careful farming, for sure, and probably in lots of cases much cleaner cellar work (even with the über-natural folks, one would hope). But towards more homogeneity…I dunno. I don’t think I’ve seen that happening yet, in any case.
But are other folks noticing a homogenizing trend? We don’t sell that much Loire here in AK, not nearly as much as I wish in any case, as it would give me an excuse to drink more…so I could be missing out on some aspects.
Personally I think Breton is more old school like Raffault. I should clarify that while I used the word “clean” in some posts, I don’t actually like that term applied here as it suggests others are “dirty”. Breton is a stellar producer, but yes, it can at times have Brett. Go with their Franc de Pied, I think that might be your best bet, and they can be delicious.
I agree with Robert, Breton is old-school and exceptional!..but some Brett can show from time to time. And I believe that their use of sulfur definitely changes from wine to wine, as the wines intended for immediate drinking (“Trinch” and the “La Dilettante” lineup) have very little sulfur, to none. But I’ve gulped, guzzled, and slurped down many a bottle of those and really had very very few problematic bottles. More often I see a bottle that shows reductive when popped, which of course is much easier fixed than Brett - a solid swirl of the glass and and a minute or two, and they are usually good to go.
I know this is a “Loire reds” thread, but given we’re talking Breton, I think it’s worth a shout-out for the Vouvray Brut - way more than just a sparkler to start a meal with! Appley, with sweet straw and that kind of musky honey quality that I (and pretty sure lots of others) totally dig in a Chenin, and that really gives it dimension and contour. A bottle of that with Thai takeout and a Claire Denis film…there are worse ways to shelter in place ;-0
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Sometimes. I had a small batch of corked Franc de Pied several years ago. Raffault typically tends to be funkier IMHO. I find them midway between Baudry and Raffault. I’m a fan.
RT
Corked is an entirely different thing, however. And its so damn random. I just had it on a new Bordeaux purchase, blew $100. And the bottle and cork looked so pristine.
For those interested and/or wondering, the 2015 Olga Rauffault Les Picasses has landed here in the metro NY area at the end of March and I think the 25% tariffs on French wines under 14% alcohol was the direct cause of the $5 increase year over year but regardless; this still remains one of the greatest wine values in the world of fine wine.