I’m not really one for heirarchies, but I have a hard time arguing with the consensus here.
There’s a major omission in Pierre-Jacques Druet, deserving of “Second Growth” status, IMO. At least the wines before the recent sale, I’m unsure what is happening with the domaine moving forward.
Producers like Baudry, Breton and Joguet (and probably have a number of others) have a number of vineyard sites where the wines can vary a great deal. Does the idea of one rating for these estates (more a Bordeaux-like model) make sense for these wines or are they more like Burgundy where one site may be a villages wine type level and another a premier cru. For example, with Baudry does it make sense to classify Les Granges at the same level as Le Clos Guillot or La Croix Boissée. Or, with Joguet, when you are classifying him, are you looking at Clos du Chêne Vert or Clos de la Dioterie or are you looking at his other wines?
I know about the iffy 90’s, but from 2003+ what I tasted from Joguet was on an upward trajectory.
Great point, with no easy answer. Never one to discount terroir, only a few people make Les Picasses, and no one else makes Chene Vert, but Sanzay and Rougeard both make Poyeaux. Maybe a comparison there to Burgundy. Lots of folks make Echezraux, but there’s a pecking order, justified or not. And in Bordeaux,no one is judging Latour on Les Forts, but the idea of terroir is malarkey when an estate can buy up any land in their appellation and call it the equivalent of their grand vin estate.
What do you think?
Thanks for all the input, all very interesting! Lots of great suggestions. Howard makes a good point - when I was thinking about the idea of a “classification”, the basis was whichever wine, or wines, is, are or were the producer’s best. For example, for obvious reasons FDP cuvées come and go. Likewise, a producer such as O.Raffault’s best wine has been Les Picasses, but in the future, I suspect it will probably be La Singulière. Over time producers come and go, there are personnel changes, plus the usual peaks and troughs according to the weather. So it’s a sort of “average” performance of the best wines, between some unfixed date in the past to nowadays.
Pierre-Jacques Druet - I left him out on purpose, because his domain is a was and the new owner hasn’t yet shown signs of really getting it going again. The older Druet wines I have tasted have been hit or miss, either very good indeed or very indifferent. The best would certainly put it into the second growth level, but nothing I have tried since Ampelidae took it over have come close.
Couly-Dutheil - this is one of the few I can actually claim to “know” well, having tasted a large number of wines and vintages. Before the style change in around 2005, I would definitely class the wines as being on the same level as the best second growths; since then I think the jury is still out.
Domaine du Collier - Antoine Foucault - this is one producer I left out on purpose, expecting someone to mention him. Over here, in terms of reputation and price, he would certainly be second growth. I’ve never tried his wines - have any of you?
Lenoir - Les Roches - Chinon - mentioned but not really pushed - I have never tried this either, which also sells for high prices. Is it really good or not?
Sorry, bit of editing, I forgot some suggestions:
Antoine Sanzay - how do his wines compare to the other top producers?
Filliatreau - I hadn’t tried enough to suggest this domain (only the 2014 and 2015), but definitely agree it’s top quality.
Fosse-Sèche, Guion - they sound very interesting indeed and well worthy of putting in somewhere.
All this is just a bit of fun and chinwag, of course!
Personally, I would have Breton above Alliet. Wide range of cuvees, some standouts, and long track record for quality and longevity. Plus, one of the few producers making a Franc de Pied.
Breton historically would be a Second, but could be a Third, no way is it a Fourth.
Curious why you say that.
Expensive and has yet to wow me enough to justify continue buying. Tried 5x different vintages and gave up.
Better than some on the posts above, but the price is a turn-off.
Alliet - yes, that’s interesting - I’ve been dipping into older vintages of Coteau de Noiré: 08, 04 and last night, 03. I’m not completely convinced yet - I put Alliet high up based on price and reputation here, but perhaps Third would be more fair.
Breton - you know better than me so why not a Third.
Guiberteau - I’ve never tried it and I agree it’s expensive - maybe a Fourth?
O.Raffault - well, La Singulière has become their top cuvée - I’ve only tried the 2012, which was very good but obviously young, so I wrote “suspect” because it looks likely to be well-received in the future, but of course this is just speculation.
Nobody mentioned Clau de Nell. The importer stopped bringing it in here, but I’ve had a few 2010s that I bought at a sale and left in the cellar for a few years and really liked them. Not the most complex,but lovely evolved wines with very good drinkability.
What are your thoughts?
Bought some from 2013 from the estate - only one I could find cheaply without hassle. Not a great vintage, but will give it a try.
This. Especially 2005, where Joguet knocked it out of the park. I also really like 07, 09 and 10. My fave cuvees tend to be Dioterie and Chene Vert, but it can be vintage-specific. The 2005 Franc de Pied was off the charts outstanding, while 04 and 07 were damn fine as well.
I have a smattering of 95s and 96s that I need to start dipping into more, but last I had was really good. The 1990 Dioterie was outstanding last time I had it.
I have had a few bottles. Too glossy.
These lists seem to be about red wines. Whites would have a different order with some of the same names. Also, the Loire is a huge and heterogeneous wine growing region. It is about 200 miles from Nantes to Sancerre.
Rougeard is at the top of the list; however, Nady has left because of differences with the new owners about the style of the wine. For now, they are still with their current US importer but I expect that could change although I don’t have any inside information. 2013s were about the same price to me as 2012 (I get them through official channels) but we’ll see about the 2014s (I’m not optimistic).
I think that Baudry* is as close in quality to Rougeard** as any other producer out there. The vintage to vintage consistency over the last 12-15 years has been really impressive (one of the reasons for Rougeard’s fame is how consistently excellent the wines are). Particularly comparing the Poyeux and the Croix-Boissée blind they have been indistinguishable in quality just different in expression (as one would expect). There is nothing quite like the Bourg, though as the vines age in Croix-Boissée and the new massale plantings come on line, I expect that this will be widely considered as one of the finest vineyard sites in the Loire.
*I’m not exactly objective about Baudry wines. I’ve been visiting the domain for 20 years and consider Matthieu a friend.
** I’ve been fortunate enough to drink lots of Rougeard and have visited the domain several times.
Clau de Nell - that’s another interesting idea. Never tried it yet and perhaps one would need to see how the wines will be post-Anne Leflaive.
Joguet - It took me a while, but after tasting a lot of older vintages I’m in no doubt as to the quality. The Varennes 02 and 03 tasted recently were stunning, likewise the Chêne Vert 02. There’s a sense of nobility which I haven’t found in the Alliets, for example.
Thierry Germain (Les Roches Neuves) - the fresh intensity of the fruit is very impressive but I’m not sure yet that the wines are better than Third.
Yannick Amirault - I’m intrigued that nobody has commented on these wines. I’ve tasted a lot of them in the last two years and have been really impressed. My only quibble would be the lack of a clear hierarchy of the wines. This is just me, but I prefer it to be more obvious which is supposed to be the best! The tippy-top one seems to be the one I have yet to try, Pavillon du Grand Clos, produced only in certain years, from vines near the house and in very small quantities.
It actually is much narrower than red Loire wines. It really is wines from Cabernet Franc. Don’t see any listing of any producers of say Pinot Noir from Sancere.
I bought a bottle of this to try. I was going to drink it young to see if I wanted to buy more. But, when Anne Leflaive died, I decided to hold the wine to maturity (whenever that is) because it became (at least for me) more of a treasure. So, I have not tasted this yet.
While price and QPR should and obviously do impact buying decisions, should they impact classification? Would you leave off Latour, Lafite, Margaux, Mouton and Haut Brion as first growths and replace them with Sociando Mallet and Cantemerle based on price?
Tasted their 14 and 15 reds and whites at Weygandt Wines a couple of years ago (Weygandt-Metzler is the importer into the US for these wines) and was very impressed. Looking forward to when the reds mature.
An interesting conundrum, eh? Price was a factor in the 1855 Classification.
A pure classification should of course be prepared irrespective of price. It should be about the vineyard, terroir and the house style, coupled with quality, complexity, consistency and longevity. As a practical matter for us normal people, price is a factor.