Sorta the point I was making but evidently not very well!
Julian, any idea about how Alliet 2018s are turning out? Is the Noiré the bottling to seek out to get a taste of the estate style? And how does he compare in your view to other estates (Baudry, Roches Neuves) in style?
Best,
Jozef
Robert - thanks for the info on the Dioterie 2009 - I’ve got some Chêne Vert and Varennes 09, neither of which I have tried yet. That you preferred it to most St.Emilion 2009s is truly astounding!
Jozef - I haven’t seen any reviews of Alliet’s 2018s yet and I haven’t seen any on offer - the 2017s I got were released last November, so it’s maybe a bit early for the 2018s.
I don’t know Alliet’s wines as well as other domains and there are certainly more knowledgeable palates here on WB. The only wines I have tried have been all Coteaux de Noiré, of which I’ve had the 03, 04 and 08 in recent months and enjoyed them all, my favourite being probably the 04. I bought them because I wanted to get a feel of the style before buying more recent vintages.
So far, I’ve found them to be more intense and concentrated, less fresh and elegant than Joguets for example, thicker and meatier, more fruit, less chalkiness. Coteau de Noiré is a wine I would serve someone who doesn’t know Loire reds, but likes Bordeaux, because it’s less of a culture shock.
Robert knows Baudry’s wines a lot better than me, but I would again say that Coteau de Noiré is more massive and structured. Compared to Roches Neuves, it’s completely different - more black fruit and less red fruit, less fresh and chiseled.
Anyway, I have bought all the recent vintages and will certainly buy some 2018s when they appear.
I’m not Julian, but since I’ve been banging the drum about Alliet I’ll take the liberty of responding as best I can. Apologies in advance for the length.
Alliet has a reputation as being extremely fastidious in both the vineyard and the winery. They are very focused on making cabernet franc that eschews anything barnyardy, “funky,” or overly “green.” One of the wines’ most noticeable attributes is that the tannins are quite elegant by Chinon/Bourgueil standards, and they manage to combine good depth and complexity with pleasing texture and impeccable balance. In one of my notes on the basic domaine cuvee I wrote that it was “Loire cf you can serve the guests.”
However, none of the above means that the wines don’t exhibit the typical characteristics attributable to the combination of varietal/region. They show plenty of herbal, “leafy” notes on both the nose and palate, intermixed with floral, earth, and fruit tones. Although Alliet’s name sometimes gets linked to Bordeaux, the wines don’t suppress their identity in any way.
The comparison to Baudry is an excellent one, since the cuvees line up well. (Indeed, it would be fun to taste through side-by-side.) Both make an excellent domaine bottling that is largely fruit driven and drinks well young, but which can age nicely for 10+ years in a good vintage.
Alliet’s Vielles Vignes cuvee is from an alluvial site. In my experience, it doesn’t have the exuberance, intensity, and snap of Les Grezeaux; instead, it offers a great deal of complexity and elegance, on a frame of lightly extracted tannins (in fact, remarkably so). It is one of my favorite Loire wines when I can find it. (Les Grezeaux is too, but it’s much easier to acquire in the U.S.)
L’Huisserie is a young vine cuvee that I believe is from a clay/limestone site (similar to the Clos Guillot, as I understand). It’s hard for me to say too much, since I haven’t been able to try one with sufficient age: unlike the VV, it doesn’t seem to drink that well when young. That said, it might exhibit a little more density than CG from a corresponding vintage.
Finally, Alliet’s Noire is intended to be the vin de garde, like the Criox Boissee rouge. Both are aged in smaller oak barrels—though in Alliet’s case, some fraction is new. Tasting them side-by-side would, I think, be very instructive. But here again, my experience is very limited with Alliet: the young bottle I opened a while ago (2010) was mute and the oak showed a bit, leading me to figure there was no point to tasting them young. So I buy a few now and then on faith.
Obviously, I like the Alliet wines I’ve had a great deal. They are the polar opposite of those that wear their more rustic characteristics on their sleeves (exemplified by someone like Lenoir, I guess). They are, to me, a very well executed exemplar of what this style of Loire cf can offer. But I like other parts of the continuum just as much.
Wow that’s an outstanding write-up, Elliott.
I clearly need to get Alliet.
Not as easy to find here as my other stable of Loire goodies. I do recall one night being at Racine’s in NYC - they own Chambers, where I do much of my shopping - and had narrowed down my selection to a 2011 Juge (that was only $105!), 2005 Les Grez and had asked the Somm for a recommendation among the maturing Baudry offerings. The Somm actually recommended a 2007 Alliet, said he’s opened two bottles that week and they were glowing. He was right. I sorta still regret not getting that Juge, as shortly thereafter, Juge became a true unicorn. And as much as I liked that Alliet, I never chased any down.
Thanks, Robert. It never occurred to me before, but the parallels with the Baudry lineup are pretty intriguing. Maybe I’ll get to organize a side-by-side tasting some day.
I’m fortunate to have a lws that sometimes carries the VV and L’Huisserie. The guy there who does the ordering tells me that he’s constantly squabbling with his distributor to get even small allocations, since they’re facing lots of demand from restaurant clients “downstate” (meaning NYC) for the wines.
I would hate to see more Loire cf become unicornified. Rougeard got away from me very quickly–it seemed like one day the base cuvee was $60 and the next it was $150. That made me more willing to expend to some effort tracking down obscure producers and sampling across lineups. This thread has been actually been great for identifying some new ones.
PS I just typed Juge into winesearcher, and it’s showing me $400 - $800 for new releases. Is that for real? JFC.
Elliot, thanks for the write-up, that is much appreciated. I will buy some of the 3 cuvées then - only 2018 is available though. But pricing seems good.
Best,
Jozef
Please do report back, whatever your impressions!
Yes indeed. The new unicorn. Huge retired after the 2015 vintage and has wines are no more. They were already growing exponentially in price before that.
Did anyone taste Arnaud Lambert’s reds, Clos Mazurique and Terres Rouges ? Seems to be picking up steam online (in France anyways) and price point is quite low.
I have ordered some that should get there soon but I was curious to know if others had tried it.
Excellent write-up, Elliot, far more eloquent than mine! It’s true that Coteau de Noiré is one that rises a lot in value after a few years but so far, apart from the weird incident I mentioned, it hasn’t hit the same heights as the other sought-after wines like Collier and it is still offered at release for 25 to 30€ - OTOH, Clos Nouveau is in the process of going stratospheric. Anyway, there are still plenty of obscure producers with great wines.
No, not yet - I’ve got some - you’re right about the price - let us know what you think!
Thanks, Julian. You have much more experience with the Noire than I do, so I’m curious if you think it belongs with the other top wines from Chinon/Bourgueil. Reading between the lines of your earlier post, it sounds like the ones you tried were good, but you weren’t really blown away by them. Would that be accurate?
It’s odd—as far as I can tell there’s just not much demand here for the Noire. (Same with Collier for that matter—I just bought a few bottles at an auction site, and there was not a ton of competition.)
I really, really would like to try that Gauthier cuvée. They’re another producer at the opposite end of the spectrum from Alliet. The basic “village” bottling is a fantastic every day dinner wine.
That’s an interesting question! In terms of quality, I would put Alliet’s Coteau de Noiré at the same level as any other top Chinon or Bourgueil. I think we put Alliet a rung lower then the others, which was probably a mistake. In terms of value, the Noiré is cheaper here than the Joguet’s and the same price as La Croix Boissée
I’m on a learning curve with these wines too - much more than with Bordeaux, for example, which I have been tasting since 1985 (but which I still learn about now). I only seriously got into them about six years ago, so I haven’t got the perspective yet and it changes all the time. For example, I preferred the Noiré 08 to La Marginale 08 by Germain or Chêne Vert by Joguet, the Noiré 04 to all other Chinons or Bourgueils, and the Noiré 03 to all other 03s. But then along came the Franc de Pied 09 by Germain which was better than any of them.
I’ve been really impressed by the three Noirés I’ve had - because of their power and concentration, but they didn’t have the nobility that a really good Joguet can have, nor that chalky touch which other great Loire reds have and which gives them that difference I haven’t found anywhere else.
It’s a bit like choosing between LLC and Ducru - I admire the former but love the latter. Since I can’t afford either, the comparison is futile, but if I was given the choice between a Baudry, a Joguet or an Alliet Noiré, I would instinctively choose one of the first two - just out of personal preference, but the quality is the same - and I’ll probably change my mind in a few years time!
My only experience with Gauthier wines has been Les Marsaules 2009, which really impressed me. I do also have some Clos Nouveau and their Grand Mont, but they’re a bit young to be cracked open yet.
To be fair and to bring Elliott up to speed, these aren’t really new releases prices he is seeing.
Elliott, the ‘15 was released in the US market in December 2017-January 2018, and that was it. On release, the prices were okay at normal markups if you could find them. Production in M. Juge’s retirement was very small. He couldn’t bring in his 2016s at all due to health issues that year, stopped working, and passed away late last summer. Starting in about ~2017, the wines went cultish and became very valuable on the secondary market and among retailers trying to take advantage of demand with extravagant margins.
Had a bit of an offbeat one tonight, from Clotilde et Rene-Noël Legrand; a 2011 Saumur-Champigny cuvée called La Chaintrée. Saw that it was a Loire wine with a bit of age for cheap at a local restaurant turned bottle shop.
Rustic if somewhat unremarkable Cab Franc; dark red fruit, black cherry, and some nice gravelly quality on the nose and palate. A little touch of leafy herbaceousness. Quite structured and full, with sandy tannins - even nine years on, this is still pretty stern stuff, and it doesn’t seem likely to really improve much. Old school, but a decent drink.
Can’t find much info on the producer.
2011 is a tough vintage
Sadly, I think “unremarkable” is spot on. I’ve had La Chaintrée and the other “superior” cuvée, Les Rogelins, on several occasions. The 2010 of both were just as stern as your 2011. Mine were a bit oaky too, which is not surprising since they spend between 24 and 30 months in barrels. This is one producer whose entry level cuvée is actually more enjoyable - Les Terrages, although they have another two I think - it’s good easy-going S-C which is perfect for summer drinking.
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