Laible, Donnhoff, and others are mentioned in the first page of this thread, which aren’t Mosel. Many would argue Hofgut Falkenstein isn’t either.
My first reaction to this is surely auction wines are better… but I don’t think I could defend that position or the other very well. To be sure every auction wine I have opened has been great but one, the 2015 Egon Müller/Le Gallais Wiltinger Braune Kupp Riesling Auslese Auction, which was merely good, and only because it was accidentally opened, and was not ready for the real world! The truth is, most auction wines are made by great producers who are already making great wines, like Willi Schaefer’s trio of Spätlese GD #5, #10, and the #13 Auction, hard to go wrong with any of those!!! Disclaimer: I have never had then side by side.
Schafer’s #5 has me covered.
Worried how much longer I’ll be able to buy that bottling in quantity. Annual purchase here.
There is always more wine.
No, that’s not what most of us mean, and it is certainly not all we’re interested in.
While it may be true in the strictest sense that the majority of comments in this thread relate to Mosel wines (I can’t say for sure, I didn’t count), I don’t think the implication - that people here only care about or are interested in, wines from the Mosel - is quite wrong, in my opinion.
It’s possible that a majority of Riesling drinkers, even here on WB, are more familiar with wines from Mosel than other regions due to historical and geographical availability, as well as writing on the subject. And since people talk about what they know, there are more comments about Mosel wines. But people are here to learn. Many of the Riesling fans on WB talk about and praise non-Mosel wines all the time. As Brian said just a few comments up, there have been many mentioned, and on the 2009 Keller Abstserde thread there are are a few lists with numerous producers from other regions! And those who read those comments seek out those wines with enthusiasm and excitement. I’ve watched the popularity and recognition of Emrich-Schonleber, to take one easy example, grown enormously over the last few years. People want to know - and there is an absolute ton of information here that goes way beyond the Mosel.
I’m not sure why the part about wines exported to the US is worthy of comment. Aren’t the majority of participants here American? Again, people talk about what they know, and how are they supposed to have learned enough about unavailable wines to talk about them? It’s not about interest or lack thereof, it’s about accessibility. Here, too, though, as more and more producers beyond just those who have always been easy to find in the US come into the country, discussion about those new finds is also increasing. And we all welcome very much the work that Robert and Steven have done with source l material, bringing unknown new producers to the US, as we value the input from non-US board members.
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Let’s see, my 2019 purchases and preorders of 2020 include wines from the Mosel, Nahe, Rheinhessen, Rheingau, Franken, Pfalz and Baden. True, they are all imported to the US, but that’s where I am, so wines available elsewhere do me no good, especially when travel is so risky.
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This thread confirms for me one fact: Mosel used to be (and still sort of is) the Bordeaux of Germany, i.e. major exporter, international player. It would be a mistake, however, to think that Mosel wine is representative of German wine. In the domestic market, Mosel is just one (and a strange eccentric one at that) region amongst many. Sure, there are some great traditional “Steillage” Riesling producers in Mosel, but within this thread, I see you guys keep on referring to producers that almost no German has heard of, nor really cares about, whereas other producers are completely neglected. If you asked me to rate them, Mosel would come in as my 4th favorite region, after Nahe (probably the most exciting region right now making the biggest advances, the mineralogy there makes their wines much more intense than a Mosel), Rheinhessen (Jugend Forscht, many of the most talented graduates of “Weinbau und Oenologie B.Sc. Hochschule Geisenheim” wine program go to Rheinhessen to make their innovative dream wines), Pflalz (yes, the decadent, creamy but mineral-laden, tropical-fruit Rieslings along the Weinstrasse that taste more like 1er Cru Burgundies) and maybe Baden (yet another Burdundy-esque region). Even in the Mosel region you guys isolate and enthuse about, there are countless family-run or off-the-radar Mosel wines that I would seek out and cherish over the usual suspects, bottlings that easily stand above the normal export items (JJ Prum et.al.). As the wise consumer is turning to German wines more and more as a replacement for out-of-stock or completely-sold-out or outrageously-overpriced Burgundies of all stripes (Teutonic Riesling and Spätburgunder replacing Gallic Chard and Pinot), I would encourage foreigners to visit and taste and select German wines before the German VDP wine network here recognizes their hidden value and raises prices accordingly. Right now, things are good, you can still get a German wine that beats out a $200 Puligny Montrachet for $60, for the most part, but then there is the over-$1000 Keller craze, and the insane auction circuit, and more and more the top producers are recognizing what they can do with marketing and export markets (even the traditional Robert Weil with that crazy Monte Vacano reserve). Which means that Germany will probably no longer be a value proposition in 5-10 years, but right now, dig in and do your research, and do not stop at Mosel, please do not.
Again, this is a mostly USA based forum, and if there are producers that export to the USA you think we are overlooking, list them. So far you just seem to be chiding people for not drinking a list of producers that only you know about.
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It really is a matter of game theory here, with two hindrances: 1.) What good is it for US consumers if a German wine I recommend is not imported to the USA (they cannot buy it anyhow unless they fly over here with large empty suitcases to haul it back with them)? 2.) What good is it for me if a large number of wealthy US consumers swarm in on little-known small-volume German producers that I know about and buy every bottle they have (none for me, rising prices for me)? I would rather “chide” you guys for not doing your homework and leave things vague, he he. Everything I say is, in a sense, more a challenge to the US importers, amongst which I think Terry Theise is the best. I mean, Theise already outed Goldatzel (one of the rising stars in value proposition Rheingau, already I see alot of my favorite Goldatzel Reserves becoming unavailable to me), and has a finger on the pulse of the Nahe, for sure.
What a douchebag
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So you admit that you offer nothing to this board full of eager German wine enthusiasts who aim to share with each other, wherever we are located, but complaints, contempt, derision, and hints of secret treasure that you aim to keep hidden. So you offer nothing by participating here. Why are you here again?
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Wealthy? A few folks here, but most certainly not all of us by a long stretch.
And since you may not be aware, but Terry Theise is no longer an active importer.
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I’m curious, which German Chardonnays are better than $200 Puligny? I’d be delighted to try some! (You’d have to look pretty hard to find $200 Puligny other than Leflaive, but let’s ignore that for now.)
If I look at the new (post-Wiest, post-Theise) generation of US importers of German wine (as described here: Disrupting German Wine. The biggest shakeup of importers in a… | by Valerie Kathawala | Medium) I admire the progression away from the Wiest “great estates” (which was always JJ Prüm and Egon Müller), but I partially shake my head: sure, Jennifer Green (SuperGlou) puts Holger Koch (a Burgundy-fanatic producer in Baden who still has reasonable prices and ok quality) in her portfolio, but not much else is of interest IMO; sure, Kevin Pike (Schatzi Wines) has Julia Bertram (very young producer, with good vineyards, but she was devastated by floods recently), and Dr. Heger, both great producers of Spätburgunder, in their own styles, but not much else interests me there. Overall, the move outside the Mosel “great estates” is laudable, but alot of discovery work needs to be done by these importers. Theise got emotional and was highly subjective, but at least he lived in Germany and brought you guys the Merkelbach bros (for instance) for decades, he he.
Get out your Google Translate app, you will need it: https://www.gute-weine.de/magazin/legendaere-weinprobe/
They are comparing German RIESLINGS agains Burgundy Chardonnays. Alot of German Riesling producers are going in the Burg Chard direction with their Riesling vinification (creamy, widespread, chamomile-and-lime palate, etc.), for better or worse. It is strategic: the “durchschnittliche Deutscher” (taxed at more than 50% of their income) has long been priced out of Leflaive, et. al.
But, between being called a D-bag (is that really allowed here?) for a rational observation, and somebody saying I have nothing to offer, when I basically just wanted to issue nothing more than wake-up call to you guys who still hanging onto the expensive “grand estate” model, I think you guys have had enough of me. Elvis has left this thread.
Chardonnay and Rielsing are not substitutes, so the comparison fails. Vinifying Riesling in a Burgundian style doesn’t make Puligny any more than vinifying Chardonnay in a Burgundian style in California makes Meursault.
I have no interest in a victim act. If you’re going to tell us we’re drinking the wrong wines, you need to tell us which wines to drink. Otherwise, you’re just doing performative contrarianism (especially when claiming you’re making “rational statements”, the easiest trolling tell). I can get plenty of that on Twitter, I don’t need it on this forum. The truth is, unless you point us to exciting new wines, what are you offering?
The fact that you imply that people on this board need Google translate to read this article shows your larger problem. In that specific case, you seem to assume Terry Theise is the only American who has lived in Germany and speaks German! More generally, you don’t seem to like Mosel Riesling particularly. Fine. German riesling comes in many styles. People on this board (many based in the U.S., not all) have a variety of knowledge and a variety of preferences. I can absolutely find you Germans who think Mosel is the best region in Germany for Riesling, just like you can prefer Nahe (and to suggest this board does not know Nahe, is false). Personally, if I had to choose only one region for Riesling, it would be Wachau, and of course that is not even in Germany. I am glad I don’t have to choose.
There is enormous expertise on this board (I profit from it every day). Ignore and/or insult it as you wish, but don’t pretend your preferences in German wine are the only valid ones. (And as for your original complaint: that the board only knows Mosel, please feel free to go through my posts and look for the thread on Rheingau I started either earlier this year or last; people provided very helpful info to me).
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“Vinifying Riesling in a Burgundian style doesn’t make Puligny…” yes, sometimes it makes something even better than an average Puligny (a la J. Prieur mediocracy). Seriously, when you say “the comparison fails” I feel you cut yourself off (in a sort of strange categorical way that I have to question) from alot of opportunities, ie. highly decadent Germanic Burg simulations (von Winning, Gut Hermannsberg, et. al.).
“unless you point us to exciting new wines, what are you offering?” The question is relevant to all of the participants in this thread:
Read me more closely, I have already dropped some hints where people should be looking in the New Germany. When you come to your senses (first cool off, and lay off the Twitter troll meme), PM me (maybe).
For me, too. That is the horrible truth no German wine producer really wants to acknowledge or even have known by the world.