You see, a wine that is too old for its good, ie. oxidized with age, has also those aged tertiary qualities underneath. A wine’s smell (and, consequently, its flavors) is not a simple reduction of a number of these chemicals resulting in these aromas; it is a matrix in which a certain molecule might have a disproportionately big or small impact for its amount in the wine. Or you might have molecules A and B in such amounts that they remain below their perception thresholds; however, when they are together in the same solution, one of them might actually be perceived: for example molecule A might cancel out effects of molecule C that mask away aromas and/or flavors from molecule B so that you can actually detect aromas and flavors that molecule B is responsible of, even though it should be below detection threshold. Or they could make aromas / flavors of completely unrelated molecule D appear. The way how wine’s flavor matrix works in very unpredictable and that is why wines are so complex and interesting.
With age not only do the different flavor and color molecules and ethanol get oxidized, but also slowly all kinds of different molecules are formed. For example sotolon - the “aged aroma compound” responsible of the nutty, caramel and curry-like aromas of tawny ports, vin jaunes, sherries etc. - takes a lot of time to develop. There is simply no time for sotolon to develop in a young premoxed wine. This is just one of many examples how an old, oxidized wine might have a very different (and often more enjoyable) aroma and flavor profile compared to that of a young premoxed wine, which might have all of its youthful fruit aromas oxidized to oblivion without showing any aged tertiary aromas to, in a sense, give support to the sharp, oxidized aromas of acetaldehyde. Although acetaldehyde is a very powerful aroma compound, often overwhelming most other aromas, the flavor matrix of an old, oxidized wine is very different from that of a young premoxed wine: you have tons of different elements that can give a lot more underlying complexity in an older wine, whereas a young wine’s aroma matrix might be just flat apart from a huge spike from acetaldehyde. This means both these wines smell aldehydic, but in wildly different ways.
I have enormous respect for Jasper, but it doesn’t seem plausible to me. I also don’t think highly experienced people would mistake reduction for oxidation. They are not at all similar.
Thanks, Doug, for reminding us that this topic has been discussed extensively before. It’s very much worth re-reading the old thread.
With regard to the reductive vs oxidation thing, I call these faux oxidized wines that wake up with an hour or two of air “reductive”. Maybe that’s the wrong term, but they certainly don’t behave like an ordinary premoxed wine, which get steadily worse the more air that they are exposed to.
Lastly, I think when this topic is discussed, it often seems like folks are talking about two different phenomena–one when a bottle that appears oxidized reverts to a healthy bottle with an hour or two of air, and the other dealing with bottles that might be quite oxidized reverting later in life (weeks,months, years) to a healthy bottle.
What we see with premox is oxidation in a young wine, vs the more natural oxidation we encounter in senile wines. It’s analogous to leaving a glass of young wine on the counter for a few days. The aromatic integration of the oxidation is very different because the background is very different, if that makes sense. But it is, chemically, the same phenomenon, just in different circumstances.
Andrew. Quick shorthand rules.
Boillot = don’t buy.
No Diam = don’t buy.
But you knew this already.
I’ve literally had more oxidized Boillot than proper bottles over time. They are number one on my don’t buy list.
Same here, though I did have some. I had bought a small number, read about the premox risk, and drank them all in the first 5 years. Not a bad bottle in the bunch. That said, they were on a qualitative level with much less expensive Ramey single vineyard Chards, and frankly tasted about the same!
And Dave Ramey us all Diams, right? There were some excellent YouTube interviews of him discussing premox, and he was researching oxidation with Zelma Long when he worked under her at Simi eons ago.
He’s also done some excellent interviews with the Bedrock guys and also the Winemakers podcast where he talked about oxidation and DIAM. Granted the Berserker community won’t believe any of it…
i have never had a premoxed wine that was in bottle for under 3 years. definitely experienced some shot boillot around 6-8 years in bottle. perhaps some other issue going on? also the lighting in the photos does not seem most optimal for judging the true color…
Just like there is a premox thread here with comprehensive answers, there’s a brown Chardonnay thread where the process is well explained. It’s a fairly common practice. In short, the compounds that oxidize then fall out of solution, leaving a wine less vulnerable to oxygen.
